Sunday, April 29, 2007

From Caesar to Kitten... "Don't panic, dear!"

I was surprised when I found a stream of comments on a posting was published some time ago. Usually, I forget to check the comments of the previous posts. I think I'm not running my blogsite well. :))
I thought about replying those comments directly, but then I chose to put my reply in a form of a posting so that it can be lucid and noticeable. And I hope it can drag other bloggers' attention and hence they are invited to have thier say about it.
So let's get down to business…
Kitten,
Thanks alot for visiting my blog, and thank you also for your nice comments. You discussed your viewpoints - which counter mine - in a very smart and nice style. And yes, I am Muslim.... er, I think I am!
About the pre-marital sex... Lemme clear something; I understand your respect about the traditional bans and religious prohibitions. I know very well the amount of troubles for any girl - in our society - loses her virginty before getting married. She becomes a slut according to some people's viewpoints and her sin that she gave her heart and body to the wrong person. That's why I chose to have ORAL sex with my relative. No intercouse was allowed for our both own good, I didn't even disclose my genitals infront of her. However, I still feel bad about that incident.

"How can u possibly respect a muslim lady if u have sex with her before marriage?"
I didn't expect to hear that from an Iraqi chick lives in a free liberal society! I understand from this that we should scorn that lady and avoid mixing with her. I mean that's what I got it from you, therefore, no wonder that the people in strict conservative communities call for stoning and whiplashing those ladies. And why you didn't say that how can a muslim lady trust or respect a muslim guy if he used to have sex before marriage? Ah, yes, I forgot! I forgot that we are living in tribal system where the guy can do whatever he likes. It's very normal here that a guy can go to brothels, hang out with prositiutes, watch porn or fool a stupid poor girl, but he goes mad when he catches his sister chatting on the phone or online with some dude. And, no! I am not encourging the prostitution here. Although I support pre-marital sex thingy, but take this from me (muslim ladies): DO NOT THINK ABOUT HAVING SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE!
I heard many stories about relationships from pals, and I found that some couples choose to do it orally - and anally sometimes- in order not to deflower the female. As far as I'm concerned, I find hugs, kisses and caresses are quite enough. Oral is fine too, but it comes when the highest levels of love and trust are approved for that couple. Unfortunately, my relative chose the 'wrong person' = me. :(

"Pre-martial sex is NOTHING except for fulfilling a desire"One day, Qais *the arabic version of Romeo" who was mad about Layla *the arabic character of Juliet* asked a preacher about sex between unmarried couples "is it considered by fornication?". That preacher answered him that "fornication is to offer your body to someone you are not in love with". and then the preacher shut his mouth and went away.

"Love, respect, care, protectivness, understanding, etcallow all of the above...but sex completes it"
That's 100% what I believe, Kitty!
You know why I like to try the pre-marital sex?
First of all, I don't have a girl friend. Secondly, I'm 23 years old virgin. I can't marry a girl before at least 6 or 5 years from now (2 years to finish my studies and 3 or 4 years of work to establish a comfortable level of living). That if I was so lucky to accomplish all that in this period. I don't come from a wealthy family or drive my own car. I don't wanna be just like others who entertain thierselves by paying for sex.
By the way, Kid! You said that what you have realized from those four years that my life is focused on meeting a beautiful chick and bla bla bla.. Well, to be quite honest, I don't know what your defenition to the beauty is. Do you mean physically? You know what my wildest dream is? It's to meet a nice, sentimental and smart girl and share one roof with her and spend my life calling her name. That's simply my wildest dream! Thanks, kid, anyway!
And, Red Devil! Lemme take a bow for your"I fully respect any lady who would wait for marriage to have sex or a 14 year old girl who was curious about going through the experience". That proves who nice insightful person you are! As a matter of fact, I don't mind to love and -marry- a deflowered girl. Or should we dump any girl who has been fooled by some bastards? See, kitten! Not all of the men are pigs. ;)
Finally, I have to say thank you very much to visit my blog and drop some hot spicy comments. And, no.. you didn't bother me at all. An intellgent industrious blogger like you is always welcomed.

P.S. : Melantrys has left you a comment on this page for you, Kitty!

114 comments:

Res said...

^_*

Snow!

xx, res.

Res said...

Hello, Kitty!

farewell! (spank*~~to U2)

Kitten said...

melantrys
(i dont know if my comment went through on the other page...but this is my reply to u...)

Excuse me?!!!!!

First of all my apologies for assuming ur a male...ur comment just came across that way.

secondly...'spiteful'??? woaaah...where did that come from? as far as im aware, i was putting across a point of view. there was nothing rude, or malicious about it.

Huni, if u consider that to be 'spiteful' then u have lived a very sheltered life and u havnt seen 'spiteful' for real! but hey, obviously we r not on the same wave-length so i apologise a second time if u found anything i said to u offensive.

Thirdly, i think i have made it quite clear that i do NOT object to the actual opinions...if u think thers nothing morally wrong with it...thats fine..its up2 u...BUT like i said before, what troubled me about the whole thing was NOT the idea of pre-martial sex but when it is expressed as ok by muslims. My whole point was, how can u call urself something when u dont practice it or u break its rules.
So, just to clarify, i will not lose any sleep if the whole world started to have pre-martial sex...just dont label urself with something that prohibits the idea of it...i.e. muslim

last but not least, i am not 'harassing' caesar...its called a discussion...and huni, im sure he can fight his own battles and he doesnt need a lawyer...so y dont u leave it upto him to tell me if im 'harassing' him...thank u

Kitten said...

Caesar...

loool! where do i start?!

first of all...i did panic! in fact...the first word to leave my mouth was 'sh*t'! the second and third were 'double sh*t'...lol :p

"I have to say thank you very much to visit my blog and drop some hot spicy comments"

i couldnt stop laughing! lol!
And hey, of course i dont think ALL men r pigs..just most of them :p:p
On a more serious note...ur a true gentleman and u really have impressed me with ur politeness. Thanks for ur sweetness :)

"And yes, I am Muslim.... er, I think I am!"

NO comment about this! :p

"That's why I chose to have ORAL sex with my relative. I didn't even disclose my genitals infront of her"

im confused!!! if u had oral sex, not did u only...erm..disclose ur genitals...but u would have shoved them in her face! pls excuse my way of putting it into words...im really sorry to be so crude but something is missing here! either im misunderstanding what u mean by oral sex, or u r not aware to what u r refering to!
And hugs and kisses r not classified as sex...

about the respect...
from my point of view, if a MUSLIM woman can provide her body so easily and cheaply to any1 who claims that he loves her, then she has no pride, dignity, or self-respect so she wouldnt have my respect either.

And of course its not ok for a guy to do as he pleases..but at the end of the day ya caesar, there is no way of proving that a male is a non-virgin unlike females, so he can just deny it and no1 can hold anything against him.

Caesar, i just find it really dissapointing that islam is so lost nowadays. i dont know...but it saddens me. Fornication is one of the biggest sins in islam...and if MUSLIM (and i highlight MUSLIMS) start to consider it as ok, then all is lost.


it all comes down to this guys...
and im addressing muslim, arabic guys here ONLY before any1 jumps down my throat again...:

To those guys who r in favour of pre-martial sex...do u have any sisters? if not, one day u will all be fathers to beautiful, innocent girls inshallah...(and remember, all these girls that u r satisfying ur needs with r somebodys sister or daughter...)

let me ask u...

would u be ok with ur sisters/daughters having pre-martial sex?

If the answer is 'No'...i win :)

If the answer is 'Yes'..then i rest my case!


P.S. Caesar...ur reply was worth the wait :)

P.P.S. Pls let me know if am 'harassing' u ya caesar and i'll stop it.

Kitten said...

hello to u too res

and 'spank' right back huni

Proshat said...

I feel relieved that there are still real people in the societies like ours, who believe in freedom of pre-materital se*.
I mean, the fact that you respect a lady wether she have had any kind of intercourse before marrige or she had waited to get married is really important. Cos, sometimes freedom is used bu some dudes to encourge a girl to have se* (not make love) without her approval. I consider that 'rape'

zmanutdz said...

Kitten:

Your points are clear and I think I get your point. Something that I dont understand is why should a muslim woman loses her dignity,pride and self-respect and your respect if she had pre-marital sex?

Is pre-marital sex so central to bearing all of those traits?

Yes, it doesnt fit the doctrine but should that ' deed/sin ' render you without your dignity and self-respect?

Why is it regarded as the ultimate act of defiance and wrongdoing whilst other ' deeds/sins ' are considered ok and forgiveness is possible.

Is it because of the ' hymen ' and its presence in chaste and pre-marital-sex-defying individuals . So a woman's worth is now being judged by the presence of a layer of skin somewhere in her body.

Muslims do not adhere to everything in their religion and pre-marital sex should not be an exception.

I view things is a very simplistic view.

PS: Caesar, thanks for your compliments. The feelings are mutual.

jhondie said...

I don't know about you guys, but I find that a more experianced woman can better satisfy you in bed then any virgin. Ladies I'm sure you will agree with the male counterpart. Besides,You have the rest of your life to be married, why not test the waters.

Kitten said...

zmanutdz...

First of all..hi..i hope ur well :)
Thank u for ur comment.

u want to know why a muslim woman OR man (it applies to both) would lose their dignity,pride and self-respect and my respect if they had pre-marital sex?

Because they would lose their respect in their creators eyes, so how can i respect them?

When the Lord forbids us against something and we defy him, and carry out an act knowing he is watching...what respect for ourselves would remain?

By disobeying, i am challenging a supreme power, the almighty, my creator...what for? The desires of the flesh?


'Why is it regarded as the ultimate act of defiance and wrongdoing whilst other ' deeds/sins ' are considered ok and forgiveness is possible'

'Muslims do not adhere to everything in their religion and pre-marital sex should not be an exception'

zmanutdz...from ur blog and comments...from what little i know of u...i can still tell that u r a highly intellectual individual and a deep thinker. I dont think u require an answer to those questions but im going to provide u with one anyway.

Different sins/wrong-doings are not regarded at the same level. Some can be forgiven and others cannot. some are bigger and worse than others...
Let me give u a simple example...a shoplifter who steals a watch, and a murderer...r these 2 crimes regarded at the same level? will the punishment for each of those crimes be the same by the law? of course not...

Just because muslims do not adhere to everything, does not mean that they can do as they wish!
We cant tell a theif to go commit murder and rape people because he is already commiting one crime, so it wouldnt make a difference if he commits the others! or can we...?

Doubting the existance of God, murder, and FORNICATION are regarded as the highest sins in islam ya mister.

Caesar of Pentra said...

Hi, Kittie!
Hehehe, who said that you are harassing me? Of course not.
About that "ORAL"...
Er,... how can I say this?...
Look... I kept my pants buttoned. However, I licked her... 'tits' and 'cunt' with few french kisses and cuddles.
And no, I didn't ask her to gimme a blowjob. ;)
About fornication,
You heard about the seven deadly sins? Well, fornication is not one of them.
I agree that no girl should offer her body so quickly to any1. But that doesn't mean you should wait to the wedding night to make love with your lover.
Kittie! Nowadays, marriage is too difficult. The guy should do the impossible to get married.
In western societies, the guy and the girl work for thier future until they achieve a good decent life, meanwhile, they share one place, one bed and one heart.
I don't wanna marry a foolish housewife. I wanna marry an industerious active girl who shares the responsiblity!
About sisters and pre-marital sex. You made it personal there.. hmmmm.. Anyway, I said it before on the post "take this from me (muslim ladies): DO NOT THINK ABOUT HAVING SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE!"
Actually, I share topics like that with my sister. I have explained my viewpoint that she could talk in any issue she likes. No limits for our discussions. I asked her once about love and relationships and she told me that she doesn't trust the pre-marital thing. And she is right to say that. Girls here don't trust playful guys. Her Hymen is her reputation, if she loses it she loses her reputation. Unfortunately, I can't do much about it. I wouldn't matter if I got married with non- virgin lady.

Proshat, Jhondie and Devil.. Thanks alot for sharing the conversation.

Kitten said...

looooooooooooooooooooool!!!
Let me stop laughing and i'll get back to u....
looooooooooooooooool!!!!!!!!!!

Kitten said...

Erm..hehe...hi there caesar...
Im a bit more composed now..but i cant stop giggling...lol
I havent laughed like that in a long time...so merciiiiiiiiiiiii for making me laugh.

'About that "ORAL"...Er,... how can I say this?...'

U dont need to worry huni..u said it just fine! lol
Thanks for the very...erm...graphical explaination that u provided!!!

e7m..."blushing"...

Of course iv heard of the 7 deadly sins:
*gluttony
*greed
*sloth
*wrath
*envy
*pride
*lust

Although Fornication is not stated as one of them, it comes under 'Lust'...
BUT...thats in CHRISTIANITY...i happen to be a MUSLIM! and i assure u that in islam...'zina' is one of the biggest sins.

Caesar u contradict urself...one minute ur saying 'you shouldnt wait to the wedding night to make love with your lover' and the next minute ur saying 'muslim ladies: DO NOT THINK ABOUT HAVING SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE!'

make ur mind up ya mr...which is it gona be? wait or dont wait?

Confessions of a Malamute said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Matt said...

"DO NOT THINK ABOUT HAVING SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE!" Well, just don't put yourself in a state of temptation and you ought to be good to go. However, Caesar, I'm sure you know this, saying that and then actually doing that are two seperate things. Glad to see you're still alive and kickin' man! Alright, later on!

M . H . Z said...

Dear everyone, I've read this post and all the comments about it, they're all very deep and persuasive in their own kind of way, I'm going to tell you my clear opinion of this as a person who will also need about 28 years of his life to settle down under a cozy roof, pre-marital sex huh? I haven't read earlier posts or comments as this one I think is more than enough to realize the goals of these discussions, first of all, I believe we're talking about Islam here and despite everything I believe that Caesar realized that by sticking to err (oral) sex ..

Kitten said that a girl would lose her pride and dignity when she practices pre-marital sex, now if we ignored that FACT although it's difficult to, let’s start with the legal excuse Caesar is using and that is being in love and having the hope of spending the rest of their lives together, now in my life which is still too short to claim experience, I have witnessed and heard of no less than hundreds of failed love stories, they're deeply in love, except that it doesn't work out after all, now let me ask you a question Cesar and I want an honest answer, are all guys like you? And by that I mean, are they all willing to respect a woman who had pre-marital sex and lost her virginity for her personality and are ready to be in love with her and marry her? Does your look at all Iraqi guys say that? even the ones who believe and urge for pre-marital sex..

This makes me reach a final conclusion, if all love stories involved pre-marital sex, this will lead to hundreds of women who can't live but walking beside the walls of Iraq...

So unless you figure out a solution that will make every guy thinking that pre-marital sex is ok, you can’t do it with a woman you love, because I already said the chances of failed love stories, and If you really loved her, you wouldn’t want to hurt her that bad .. or would you?

Sincerely Yours

Kitten said...

M.H.Z

My point exactly...i thank u for ur support and its good to know that SOMEBODY agree's with me.

oh by the way...i am very curious as to what m.h.z stands for..?
u dont have to tell me of course. I tend to be very inquisitive at times...although i know the saying 'curiousity killed the cat'...lol :)

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Weeeell this is certainly a change from politics, Caesar. lol!

Kitten,

You say that someone should not call themselves a Muslim if they believe in pre-marital sex because it is against the rules of Islam.

Have you ever considered that those "rules" were written a long time ago? That at that point in time there may have been very good reasons for them, but now things may have changed somewhat?

Caesar has pointed out that it may be a long time before he can marry because of the necessity to be able to support a wife. Years ago a simpler lifestyle may have allowed for a shorter waiting period. To condemn him or others like him who may find it difficult to wait is a little cruel, don't you think?

Any religion, I am not just speaking of Islam here, must be a little flexible to allow for changes in society, I think.

And what happens between consenting adults is really not the business of anyone else.

Kitten said...

Lynnette...

Thank u for ur contribution and for sharing ur opinion.

Religion does not change. The words of God do not change with changes in time...they always remain the one and the same.

Lynnette..these rules were put there not just for the sake of putting rules. Certain things and actions were prohibited for a reason (like u mentioned).

Look at the changes that have occured in our society. Look at the increased number of ppl infected with sexually transmitted diseases each and every day. Look at the increased number of children who are born to a couple that have decided that their relationship is over and its time to move on. Look at the increased number of children who dont even KNOW who their natural father is because the mother had slept with only god knows who and how many at one time.

Im not saying that pre-martial sex is the primary cause for those increases but it has contributed to them in a big way.

with sex, 'accidents' tend to happen...and the result of those accidents are innocent children torn between seperated parents....dont u think thats cruel? At least with marriage, a couple are more likely to make a commitment...more likely to compromise...more likely to make things work out.

Thanks for ur thoughts once again Lynnette..:)

P.S. i hate politics! so lets not go there plsss :p

Caesar of Pentra said...

Wait me to clear my points, ok?!
Be right Back, fellas!

Confessions of a Malamute said...

I’m really trying to stay out of this one…

But some of these comments are making it hard.

Religion. Or more to the point organized religion. I personally hate it. It’s a load of total bullshit is why. With all the crap that goes on in the world, people starving, wars, global environmental changes, do you really think god gives a shit if you're getting laid or not ? I mean seriously. Use some of your reasoning skills here. Children are dying every single day from things like bombs, lack of medicine, lack of clean water, or simply being born in the wrong country at the wrong time and you think god gives a shit if you're getting some premarital sex ????

God doesn’t give a damn in the slightest. Your local religious nutbar on the other hand does. Its called control. Karl Marx called religion the opiate of the masses and he’s right. Its for the spiritually neutered. Those incapable or unwilling to find god themselves go to a so called expert.

These are the same experts who cant keep their dicks out of the choirboys asses, and don’t kid yourself the same thing happens in the Islamic religion. Or any religion that oppresses natural functions of the body.

They cant tell shit from shite but they’ll stand there and tell you they know all about god. Just don’t ask them questions because you must simply mindlessly obey.

Kitten you said “how would you feel about your sisters having sex”

Basically its none of my business what they do – I have 4 sisters btw. The ONLY issue I’d have with it is if their partners were being abusive and harming them emotionally or physically.

You also said that the word of god doesn’t change. In the strictest definition of that you are correct. To be in harmony with god is something that can be achieved and that doesn’t change. Religion on the other hand knows nothing of god and changes all the time. Look at how many religions there are right now and how many there have been. They change constantly. One thing they have in common however is so called experts who are more than willing to spout the “will of god” at you so long as you don’t ask too many questions or think for yourself. If you do you're a heretic, anti-god, dangerous you name it. Then the gloves come off and the façade of the so called gods of forgiveness and love are more than happy to stone you to death, burn you to death or any other number of ways to fear the rest of the population into mindless submission. You will never learn anything about god by listening to a so called expert.

You also made the point of babies who are born to parents who aren't married. The only time this matters is when the hateful evil religions wont see past the innocent child and get stuck on enforcing their power over people by calling their birth a “sin”.

Tell me something. In christianity is the story of Adam and Eve. In theory they were the very first people.

Who married them ? They had children obviously or no one would be here. Their children btw, who did they marry ? Since they were the first children of the first people who did they marry and who did the marriage ceremony ? Or did they marry each other. And since Adam wasn’t a priest I guess they didn’t marry each other they simply screwed each other blind and popped out inbred babies to populate the earth. Which I guess makes us one big happy family doesn’t it ??

Religion is full of lies, deceptions and contradictions. For instance do you believe that you live outside god ? Or do you believe you are a part of god ? Do you believe that god is perfect ? This is sort of a trick question so be VERY careful when you answer them.

Yes, there is a god. But god doesn’t exist in any way as portrayed in ANY religious texts. You want to know the will of god look no farther than your own heart and soul. There is where you will find god. No other place. Certainly not in the words of some lying control freak passing him/herself off as holy.

As for premarital sex… I’ve had more than a little experience with that concept. Being that I’ve slept with more women than I can literally remember the names or exact number of. I’ve never once had an STD. Its called a condom. It helps cut down on that sort of thing. It also helps cut down on unwanted children too, of which this earth has more than its share of.

Jhondie was right when he said that the best sex is with someone who knows what they're doing. I’ve slept with virgins, I’ve slept with sluts, I’ve slept with girls I never bothered to learn the names of and I’ve slept with girls I’ve loved. I’m at the stage in my life where I prefer to be with someone I love. Someone who knows what the hell they're doing. God doesn’t care about a ring on their finger or some piece of paper saying this cult or that cult approves of this union. The part that matters is what is in your heart. If you have deceitful intent then harm will come from your actions. Doesn’t matter what those actions are. If you have decent intentions then you can create beautiful things. Intention is everything. Like the kitchen knife it can be used to murder someone or it can be used to chop up veggies for supper, the knife is still the same thing. Your intentions in how its used is what makes the difference.

I don’t care if you have premarital sex or not. You want to deceive yourself with this religious cult or that one I don’t care either. Its up to you how to live your life, and its up to others how to live theirs too. There is no moral superiority to one belief or another because they're all total bullshit. You find the will of god in your heart after much contemplation (this means thinking for yourself and using rational thought about what you believe and why you believe it), not after listening to some talking monkey or reading one single book. Lets face it more likely than not the ONLY reason you are a Muslim is accident of birth. You were born to Muslim parents and they told you that’s is how god is. Did you ever stop to ask yourself if this made sense to you ? Did you ever stop and think about what you believe and why you believe it ? The only people who fear questions about god are the so called experts. The priests and Imams and monks. Its because they don’t have the answers. So they keep you quiet with garbage like “have faith”. There is nothing wrong with questioning your idea’s of God. They may make your beliefs stronger or they may make you actually get off your spiritual ass and find out what god really means to you.

If Caesar wants to have premarital sex by all means go for it. Just don’t do your own cousins Caesar, that’s a little too close to home ya know what I mean. Find a nice girl who you can love. As for love it never lasts forever. Even true love is limited by time. Enjoy the time that you do have it. Maybe its one year maybe its your whole life. When you die that love is gone. When you are reborn or if heaven is actually a real place then the loves you had here in this life will be a part of your spirit in the next. And that’s what counts. What you do with your actions. I’ve met people who have been married for years and don’t like each other. I’ve met people who will never marry and have the best love going. Its what is in your heart that counts. Not some worthless pieces of paper.

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Mel;

I just read that side bar thing I dont normally read that part. As for catholics eating fish on fridays I'll have to ask my mom about that. Shes a catholic and VERY old school one at that. Seems to me that there is a thing about eating fish on fridays but Im not sure since Im not a christian and do my best not to read any of that rubbish

Caesar of Pentra said...

Kitten,
I'm not contradicting myself. I support illegal sexual activities between any two heterosexual LOVERS, meanwhile, I don't recommend our girls to go such an experiment because I know our guys.
Unfortunately, a major part of Iraqi men can't say OK about getting married from a non - virgin girl... I can't understand it, anyway!
It doesn't matter for me whether she kept her virginty or not as long as we are in love. Yes, Matt! I have right to temptate others not to do something they may want it. I was just giving my own thoughts.
My concept is liberal (and western), unluckily, there are very few like me there in Iraq who sustain my standpoint. Which means that most girls in Iraq who choose to try the pre-marital thingy are sliding on a brittle ice. I think this is the painful truth, MHZ!
And for god's sake! pre-marital sex doesn't necessarliy mean breeding illegitimate childern!! You are figuring the pre-marital sex by mere playful desires. You are depriving it from any affections, sentiments and sensations! As if we are animals!
You said that you don't respect any lady who had sex before marriage. Excuse me, but that part stinks! That lady is still a human being and has feelings. It's not fair to add to her trouble some extra troubles. I mean c'mon.. Even the prostitute is a human being. I was about to publish a post about brothels here in Syria, and I had collected many stories for this topic. But I dumped the idea for some reasons.
Kitten, you should thank the Almighty millions of times for being better than many poor Iraqi ladies. Those miserable ladies who were forced to travel along that dark way. Many of them were dislodged and lost thier provider during wars and racial fights. And because no body cares, they were welcomed by the traders of pornography.
Kitten, don't think that anyone of us consider the sex no. 1 in his/her "mosted wanted things" list. The mutual love with a nice kind person comes at the top of that list.
You still young, dear! You haven't discovered many things yet. ;)

Lynette, thanks for giving me a hand! I'm happy to see you here at last. You can't miss such conversations. :P

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Kitten,

Confessions of a Malamute's comment is close to how I feel. He is just a little more blunt. ;)

Although I can't offer a blanket condemnation of all religious leaders or scholars, like CofaM. Like any organization I think you will find both good and bad people involved. I don't really have a lot of faith in man's interpretation of religion(organized religion). It is what is in your heart that is real.

I don't know that I can add anything more to his comment. It was quite complete.

Confessions of a Malamute,

I don't know what Mel's question was, I haven't read the sidebar, but Catholics do eat fish on Fridays during Lent. It's a form of fasting. Once Easter is past then they can eat meat again.

Caesar,

Oh, I've been lurking for quite some time now. For awhile there you weren't posting and I kind of forgot to check you. But then Mel mentioned about her upcoming visit and I thought I'd see what was up over here. :)

You've had some interesting discussions since I was here last. It took me awhile to get caught up.

Kitten said...

Confessions of a Malamute...

Thank u for sharing ur thoughts.
i disagree with some of what u said and agree with some.

'For instance do you believe that you live outside god ? Or do you believe you are a part of god ? Do you believe that god is perfect ?'

These Q's are another discussion all-together and if i get started on that...i'll never finish. But i asked those Q's a long time ago...and i have found my answer...not a complete answer...but im getting there.

'You were born to Muslim parents and they told you that’s is how god is. Did you ever stop to ask yourself if this made sense to you ? Did you ever stop and think about what you believe and why you believe it ?'

Yes actually...more than u can imagine. I have asked Q's that no one dares to ask...i have had discussions that are beyond deep...and like i said..an answer has been provided...or the start of the answer anyway...not in books, or from a big religious leader...but my answers were given to me in the strangest and most unexpected ways. im not going to discuss this of course, because its between me and my Lord only. but all i can say, is that if u seek Him, u will find Him.

'You want to know the will of god look no farther than your own heart and soul. There is where you will find god'

Spot on...:)

'Intention is everything'

Spot on once again...

erm i think i know what a condom is and what uses it has, thank u..lol but i did say 'accidents' can happen!


Caesar and Lynnette...thank u for ur comments too.

Everybody has a point and each of us looks at things from a different angle. All that has been said is valid and there is no right and wrong answer. it all comes down to personal experience and no 2 humans see the world through the same set of eyes.

Thank u every1 for sharing ur opinions. I have said what i wanted to say and i now rest my case :) i have enjoyed reading ur comments and reflecting on them...

Caesar, a special thank u for giving me the opportunity of having this debate.

I have exams starting next week..so i think i better start doing some serious revision...lol
I'll pop in from time to time to see whats happening...but no more lengthy comments for a while (i bet ur thinking wat a relief...lol :p )

pls take care of urself ppl...and hey, do try to behave until i bump into u once again...;) :p

With regards...
Kitten

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Kitten,

I have anjoyed reading your comments also.

Good luck on your exams. :)

aNarki-13 said...

d00d with all due respect: ORAL SEX IS SEX.
oh, and it does NOT mean TALKING TO A GIRL ABOUT SEX.

Kitten said...

Thank u lynnette :)

Caesar of Pentra said...

Malamute,
Your comments always rock! I'm lucky to have such a brilliant mind to visit my blog and comment my postings.

Anarki,
NO INTERCOURSE NO SEX!!!
You should know this. And please, don't blame me for adoring sex. I am sorry I can't be fake to please others! So welcome back, 13 ;)
DO you have plans to visit Syria?

Kitten,
You are welcomed, dear! I like such debates also. I hope you keep visiting me ;)
Good luck with your exams.

Lynnette,
I will post more and more about this, ok?!
I need to ask you something...
Why you don't start your own blog? Or you have a blog by another ID?

aNarki-13 said...

Pentra are you for real??
"NO INTERCOURSE NO SEX" ??!

1) don't do a Clinton on this one, if it didn't work for him, it won't work for you.

2) it IS called oral SEX.

3) i'm not saying you are faking your desires. all i ever say regarding this subject is YOU HAVE TWO HEADS. LET THE BIGGER ONE DO THE THINKING.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Anarki,

ORAL SEX IS SEX.

Yep. Clinton was being a typical politician, trying to weasel out of something.

Caesar,

I don't really have time to maintain a blog. If I did that, I'd never have time to read you guys! :) It's so much more fun to visit other people and see what they're talking about. And if I get involved in an argument in a comments section, it can take time to research some of my responses.

aNarki-13 said...

btw no i don't have plans to visit syria, sorry..

anyway: here's something that brought me again to this thread:

"You are figuring the pre-marital sex by mere playful desires."

well, of course one would make that connection: how?

sex is used for 3 purposes:
1) to spawn
2) to have fun
3) for money/power/leverage

so unless you want to father illegitimate children (with all due respect to them, all over the world) OR sell your seed for CASH or influence, you are basically just out for fun.

you ARE contradicting yourself badly here, bro: again and again you say its OK for YOU (and the girl whom you later shunned, by your own admission), but its NOT OK for everyone else.

i call Bullshit.

Caesar of Pentra said...

Wtf, 13? It's unfair that you restrict sex with these points (purposes). You are dispossessing sex from its paramount implications. It's like a marriage of sentiments and emotions between two lovers. It is the utmost level of love, when someone wants to be a part of his/her lover. I am not talking about casual relationships, or "pay to play" stuff. If I want to have fun beyond sex, I could go to brothels and hire some social sex workers.
I think I showed my outlook about this... I'll say no more.

aNarki-13 said...

so from what i understand, its OK to make love, but its NOT ok to have sex, right?

ok, so i add one more point:

4) to make love.
now how do you define that? how do you guarantee that every couple will be making love (which is OK) instead of faking it and just having sex? (which is a NO-NO)

also, from what you have already said, you did NOT MAKE LOVE to your cousin. you just ate her out and then dumped her a few days later.

and another thing: you DO support pre-marital SEX, while at the same time advise against it:
"Although I support pre-marital sex thingy, but take this from me (muslim ladies): DO NOT THINK ABOUT HAVING SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE!"

!!??

"I think I showed my outlook about this... I'll say no more."

you did not show or explain anything except maybe THIS.

you might think i'm being hard, i'm not. i'm only asking fair questions, and logically reaching conclusions based on leads YOU have presented.

Kitten said...

Anarki...

I agree with u on the majority of what ur saying and u have pointed out things that i was going to ask caesar about after finishing my exams...but uv saved me the trouble :)


Caesar,

Lets face it, the MAJORITY of couples have sex to fullfil desires of the flesh...nothing to do with love huni...not nowadays anyway.

And if u love her that much, and u want to complete that love by sex..then provide her with the protection of marriage before u touch her. Make it special...make it have a meaning...

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Anarki,

I don't mean to butt into your discussion with Caesar. I just wanted to mention a couple of things.

how do you guarantee that every couple will be making love (which is OK) instead of faking it and just having sex?

No one can guarantee that. That is what personal responsibility is all about. The problem comes when a couple is not on the same page as to what is going on in their relationship. That's when people get hurt.

Personally, I may not be against pre-marital sex, but I am not into "hooking up" or "one night stands". For me, sex is not a recreational amusement. I have to have feelings for the person before I would consider it.

I don't know Caesar at all, but from some of his comments I think that there may have been more of a reason for his being intimate with his cousin then just fun. He may not be in love with her, but he may have warmer feelings for her then he thinks. That does not negate the fact that he does owe her an apology. Because my guess would be that she allowed that intimacy because she has stronger feelings for him.

And, Caesar, it's never too late to apologize. :)

zmanutdz said...

anarki,

I think I understand Caesar's comments. He is advising girls that come from intolerant societies to stay away from pre-marital sex , not because he is against the idea but because they may get in trouble with their parents.

He simply did not want to advocate a personal choice that may bring some disastrous consequences for a girl from a conservative and religious background that has some aspirationg of marrying a person from the same orthodox background.

Caeasr, sorry for doing the honurs of replying but I felt I understood your point. Please feel free to correct me or clear up any confusion.

Caesar of Pentra said...

ZmanutdZ,
Thanks alot, buddy! You've just said what I was trying to say and explain here. Be sure of this: I won't make love (have

sex) with any girl if I wasn't sure 100% that she is my "one and only". In such conformist communities, virginity means

alot for the girl. Sometimes it means her life! Therefore, she can't risk it for any trivial reason. When she risks losing it

for her lover, she risks her life. In return, the guy must be on the same level of responsibilty and sacrifice.
It's quite complicated there... hehe, My brother told me once that I'm following the propaganda of the Tobacco

companies for warning people about the dangers of smoking.

13,
Anyway, it seems that ZmanutdZ and Lynnette have gotten what I was saying, therefore, you can't say that I didn't

show or explain anything but... Whatever. Anyway, I thought that you are smarter than that.
Yes, I've made a big mistake with my relative (who was a dear friend of my sister too). No words or apologies can

justify the awful mistake I made there. But that was about three years ago, and I was living in a sexually fucked up

society. It was my first erotic situation. I'm not trying to emancipate myself from this guilt, but I think I controlled myself

quite well there. Anyone else can keep playing that game with such poor girl. However, I still feel terribly bad about this.

She was one of the main reasons that made me do blogging.
I understand your anger, 13! Believe me, I feel the same. I'm not hypocrite at all, pal!

Kitten,
"Lets face it, the MAJORITY of couples have sex to fullfil desires of the flesh...nothing to do with love ...not nowadays

anyway."
How could you know that? On what observations you made that theory? I think your mind is busy with exams, and

your mind starts to mix things up. ;)
Study well first and visit me later, ok?!

Lynnette,
I tried as possible as I could to send her my apology but I couldn't make it. I live in Damascus (Syria) and she lives in

Rumadi (Iraq), she doesn't use the net and she doesn't have her own cellphone. It's quite difficult to tell her my

apology. I like her a lot... I mean she is cute, nice and funny. I used to consider her as if she was my sister. I used to

have ordinary talks with her, tell jokes.. etc. I wasn't aware that she had these strong feelings for me. Anyway, I didn't

stop this from the begining.
I believe she thinks that I broke her heart. It's too late to give any apology... But, to come late, better than not to come

at all.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Caesar,

Hopefully there will come a time when you can, if not make it right exactly, at least make it a little better with her.

It's quite difficult to tell her my

apology. I like her a lot... I mean she is cute, nice and funny. I used to consider her as if she was my sister. I used to

have ordinary talks with her, tell jokes.. etc. I wasn't aware that she had these strong feelings for me. Anyway, I didn't

stop this from the begining.
I believe she thinks that I broke her heart. It's too late to give any apology... But, to come late, better than not to come

at all.


Tell her this when you can. It's a good start. :)

Kitten said...

Nope ya Caesar...im not mixing anything up. Im well aware of what im saying.

Ur Q's...'How could you know that? On what observations you made that theory?'

Hmmm...let me see...

How about the fact that i look around and very few ppl that i know have ended up marrying the person they lost their virginty to?
How about the fact that if i go out today and do a survey, more than 90% of the sexually active population here would be with a partner differnt to the one they lost their virginty to?
How about the number of 'one-night stands' that occur?
U know what a 'good night out' is for a single person here? usually friday and saturday nights...here is how it goes:

Clubbing...Drinking...Flirting and dancing with a random someone...going to her place or his and ending the night with sex! Hell...forget going to someones place, try the toilets! try in a taxi!!!

Im not saying that every1 does this...but it happens A LOT!

I just hope to god that this does not occur in islamic countries and if it does, its not as common as it is here.

Do u know how many partners ppl have in a life-time here? were they in 'LOVE' with all of them?

Caesar r u for real?
U think most ppl are having sex because of true LOVE?
Do u realise how deep this word is or what its meaning indicates?

True love is eternal..it never ends...and that hardly exists nowadays.

So when i see a couple together, and theyr happy, and everything is fine, and they say theyr in love, and then sometime later things stop working, and they seperate, and each go their seperate ways, and they suffer for a bit, and then they meet someone else, and they fall in love once again, and so on and on...is that true love?

Lust, crush, attraction, desire, a fancy, a liking, fondness....yes!
Love...no way! u cant replace real love so easily.

Look around at the world ya Caesar.
Look at the sex hype that surrounds us. Everything has become about sex, money, sex, power, and more sex!

And after all this...u ask me, on what observation do i say that the majority of sex is to fulfill a desire! What can i say...

aNarki-13 said...

"I just hope to god that this does not occur in islamic countries and if it does, its not as common as it is here."

sigh. kitten, your intentions are good, but let's not turn this into a "DECADENT WESTERN VALUES FTL" argument.
every culture has its ups and downs. even our current "Islamic" culture. especially that.
(btw: this is the part where you go *GASP!*)

aNarki-13 said...

on another note:

Flashy "Romeo&Juliet"-style never survives the first 3 years. never.
it gets replaced with DEEPER feelings. intimacy.
so word for the wise: get hitched to someone you actually like to talk to.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

How about the fact that i look around and very few ppl that i know have ended up marrying the person they lost their virginty to?

And does this mean that they didn't have real feelings for them? Of course they did. But people are ever changing, Kitten. It is the lucky ones who can change together that stay together. That just isn't always possible. And this is true whether you're married or not.

True love is eternal

Yes. But being "in love" isn't. Not everyone makes that transition.

Or as Anarki says...

Flashy "Romeo&Juliet"-style never survives the first 3 years.

I don't know about the exact time frame there, but he's right about the thought.

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Kitten, you're fighting a losing battle here. However, you're sticking to your guns and I respect that. See although I don’t agree with what you're saying, its up to each person to live as they choose so long as how they live isn’t hurting anyone else.

Sorry this is gonna be long

A few points.

You said “How about the fact that if i go out today and do a survey, more than 90% of the sexually active population here would be with a partner different to the one they lost their virginity to?”

And the problem with this is what ? Its like going out for a meal. Just because I went to restaurant X last night doesn’t mean I need to go there forever. People change over time. It’s the chief cause why relationships break up. People grow in separate directions. What works for you at 15 isn't what you want when you're 25. What works at 25 isn't what works at 35. This changes throughout your life. I have met people who married young and then regretted it later.

Romeo and Juliet love isn't real. At least it isn't for 99% of the population. The myth that there is one and only one soulmate for each person is just that – a myth. There is over 6 billion people on the planet. The chances that you would find your one and only in that 6 billion is just about non-existent. Maybe you live in country X and your soulmate lives half a world away. How would you meet them ? You wouldn’t. Pure chance is all and most people aren't that lucky. So it follows that there are many people you can be soulmates with. Ups the chance of meeting them without undertaking a major world travel and hope that you both end up in the same place at the same time and also recognize the person when you see them. Most of us mere mortals have to make do with garden variety love.

Love is hard work. The easy part is finding the person. The hard part is keeping that love alive and fresh and constant. If you meet at 25 by the time you're 50 you're a whole new person.

People fuck. Its genetically hard wired into us. Women are no different than men in this, but for cultural reasons they're just more discreet about it. See society says if I fuck 100 women I'm a stud. If a girl fucks 100 guys she's a slut. Utter nonsense of course. Just because a women enjoys more than one partner doesn’t make her any more morally defective than a guy who cant keep his pecker in his pants. And as for sleeping around its called sowing your genetic material as far and wide as possible. Humans are animals don’t kid yourself. We have the arrogance to believe that we aren't animals but we are. Like all animals we are hard wired to get our own genetics out there as much as possible. Hence sleeping around. Religion gets freaked out about it because religion seeks to control everything we think and do. For the control factor. Has nothing to do with god and everything to do with the paranoia that comes when those in power cant control everything down to the Nth degree. Power is always thus. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely and power always seeks more and more. Its never satisfied with controlling one or two aspects of your life. It wants to control everything you think do and say. Religion is power. It tells you that it, and it alone has the path to god. Rubbish. Religion knows nothing of god. Its just another form of politics and power and it is just as susceptible to corruption as any and all other forms of power. Always has been always will be. You take the power out of anything by thinking for yourself. You know right from wrong, you don’t need the threat of a loving god sending you to eternal damnation to act in a way that is socially acceptable. The religions on the other hand need the threat of eternal damnation to keep you in your place. The more they control you, the more power they have over you. The more power they have over you the more they will be corrupt.

You said “True love is eternal..it never ends...and that hardly exists nowadays.”

Everything is limited by time. Nothing is forever. 1 billion years from now everything that we have done will be forgotten and meaningless. The only meaning you can get is for your own lifetime. So don’t turn away from an experience till you are very sure there is nothing you can learn from it. If this means you end up with several people that you are in long term relationships with throughout your life then take those lessons and experiences and make the best from them that you can.

Life is pain, anyone who tells you different is trying to sell you something. So when love ends its painful. But its also an experience to grow from, learn from and move on to something else that you need to do in this life.

Anarki-13 I agree with what you said “it gets replaced with DEEPER feelings. intimacy.
so word for the wise: get hitched to someone you actually like to talk to.”

As people age their bodies change. Those hot 36DD boobs that attracted a guy to a girl in the first place are gonna end up hanging around the chicks knees by the time she's 50. That tight stomach that attracted her is gonna look 5 months pregnant by the time he’s 50. Especially if he likes his after work beer. The only thing that is left is emotional. Again that emotional fulfillment changes as we age. Why stay with someone who isn't right for you at age 45, even though they were a dream come true at age 28 ? Doesn’t mean they weren't a dream come true at 28, or that the love you had then is meaningless. It means that you and they changed in different directions and its time to go find someone else to float your boat.

Sex money power… yes this is the basis for our current society. Why does that person get the high paying job ? Think of it as nest building. If I can afford a nice house in a nice area I will attract more females to my nest than if I live in a cardboard box under an overpass. Same goes for power. If I can affect the lives of the city, province nation then I will attract females to my nest that see that as a sign that my nest will give her offspring a better chance of survival. Basic animal instincts at work here. Same reason that a female moose is attracted to the biggest set of antlers in the forest. He is big enough to chase off threats to her offspring and thus gives a better chance of survival for her offspring. He also tells her what he offspring will look like when they are of mating age. Large capable and able to continue the genetic line. Same works for humans. We seek out those who look healthy and able to continue our genes. Its why the cute guys and girls in the bar get laid more often then the 56yo truckers with a beer belly that makes them look 7 mo preggers or the girl that has a hunch back. These are signs that your genetic material will be wasted on genetic mistakes and are unattractive to those of mating age. Basic animal survival instincts.

Women want men to be around after the child is born due to genetics. As a couple her offspring have a better chance of survival. Human babies take a long time to mature and be able to be on their own. So having that extra help means that the child has a better chance to be alive when they're 20yo than if she is alone. Once the children are of mating age themselves the woman has little reason to continue on with that man. For that matter as long as she has a man around she doesn’t by necessity need to even have the sperm donor present to insure the survival of her offspring. Men on the other hand want to screw as many women as they can for the same reason that a Lion has a pride of females. Spread the genes. If his offspring are in the hands of 6 different women chances are a few of them are going to live long enough to breed themselves and continue the genetic line. Religion tells us there is one and only one option for pretty much everything. One god begets one way of doing things. One god; one love; one right way to heaven; one correct choice for everything. Life just doesn’t work that way. There is a multitude of ways to order everything. What is socially acceptable to us now wasn’t what was socially acceptable even 20 years ago. It changes because how we live is wrong. And we know it even if its on a subconscious level only. So every generation lives according to rules that are slightly different to the preceding generation. Not too many years ago it was socially unacceptable for women in western society to divorce or have premarital sex. Before that by only 40 years it was socially unacceptable to kiss someone you weren't married to. Before that by a scant 20 or 30 years showing your ankles was a sign of whoredom. If you look at so called primitive societies these changes don’t happen. They don’t happen because their societies live in balance. Ours doesn’t. Our society isn't in balance and until it is we will continue to change from generation to generation. Islam will change too. These changes can happen faster than you might imagine. Look at how fast christianity fragmented from being just the roman catholic church into many denominations. Look how fast Islam replaced the local religions of the ME and Africa. They can both fade just as rapidly and for reasons you cant control.

Christianity for instance fragmented due to a weather change in Tibet. See Tibet got colder for a time. That moved the rats out. The rats moved into area’s that were covered by the Silk Trail. These rats were special though. They carried plague. The plague made with way west. To the ME then into Europe. Within a few years more than 25% (and prolly closer to 50%) of the population of Europe was dead. People lose faith in their religion. It couldn’t protect them from the Black Death. So they left their beliefs behind and sought out new ways of belief. Christianity fragmented into many sub cults that we have today and is in fact still fragmenting. All because several hundred years ago it got cold in Tibet. In historical terms this change happened in the blink of an eye. With global warming and the massive impact that will have on all our societies it would be easy to imagine the massive social upheavals that will come as people lose faith in their religions, their governments and their earlier ways of ordering their societies.

You can rage against the changes or you can flow with them. In Chinese philosophy its said that the strongest thing in the world isn't diamonds or armies or power. Its water. Water fills up the empty places and makes them level. It wears down the high places and makes them level. It finds its balance and it flows and ebbs. Rage all you like against the changes they will come no matter what you I or anyone thinks. Sexual morality is no different. It too changes and ebbs and flows. See the reasons behind the words and you can flow with it. Stick to dogma and you and your beliefs will be dust and forgotten. The more we try to control the less real control we have. Sex is but a small part of this. It stems from religious beliefs not reality. Religion is just as temporal as anything else we do. So use your sense and decide for yourself if what you do makes sense or you're just doing it because that is how you were raised to believe. You claim that you thought about your religion but did you look at your beliefs with the assumption that they were correct in everything and truly the will of god ? Can you answer the question of why god would care about premarital sex when there is so much injustice in the world that is much more evil than getting a bit of nookie without a piece of paper that sanctions such actions ? Correct actions come from correct thoughts. Correct thoughts comes from much introspection and internal debate. Introspection and debate is worthless if you go into it already decided what the correct answer is. Lose the ego of self and you will find yourself. Lose the preconceived notions of what god is and what god wants and you will flow into a place where god dwells, to live in balance where power fades and with it fades the powers of those who seek to control manipulate and dominate us. People like politicians and religious leaders. The word of god isn't written in any book, though any book can contain some wisdom. The word of god speaks to your soul in the quiet of introspection. Only you and god can have that talk. The rest is window dressing and irrelevant.

Caesar of Pentra said...

Ok, Malamute!
I think you gave us different lectures in (Zoology, Social Science and Philosophy). :P
Anyway, I hope you are not a Darwinism devotee. I hope you don't mean by CHANGE that the HUMAN IS A NAKED APE!
Man! I guess you were rude a lil' bit with kitten, and please keep in mind that she is a young kitty. I understand and respect her thoughts and perspectives. I read some of her postings and I found her very sentimental and syrupy. Personally, I like the girls of her type. She is smart, industrious, kind and very sensitive. I respect her worry about her religion "Islam". I agree with most of your say, but I don't agree with your "going smoothly from one relationship to another".

Kitty,
Wouldn't be better if you worry about what happening in Arabian (and Islamic) countries from disorder, annihilation and bloodshed? If you take a glance to that area you'd see that many states are going through hell, such as, Iraq, Palestine. Somalia, Sudan, Algeria, Lebanon or even Iran. In Iraq, Islam has become a reason of disunity because of sloppy "Sunni and Shiite" hot air. For many dim-witted westerns, Islam means terror. Please, Kitten! Take James Hitfield's advice and open your mind for a different view

zmanutdz said...

Malamute:

Very good points. Not sure how true are they, but your arguement is sound and at least scientificially reasonable. I like the rationale and appreciate your critical outlook. You may have gone abit too far but I like what I read.

'Survival of the fittest ' was the only thing missing from the arguement.

As for change, we are bodies of change. Humans are constant variables :).

So Kitty, relax , your muslim brothers/sisters will be going to hell but with with their own consent and with a wide grin on their faces. ( Not that I am included in that category).

Konfused Kid said...

هههههههههههههههههههههههههههه
لكم بابا شدتعلموه للرجال هسه هوه بحالكم انتو جايين تاكلون خره براسنا هوه الرجال بس يريد بورن و انت هم جي شعليك بيهم ذوله يتعيقلون براسك تره طلعت الشغلة عن حدها و صار الحجي عبارة عن ظرطات فكرية عميقة

Confessions of a Malamute said...

I wasn’t being rude to kitten at all. I was stating my point of view only. As I said I respect that she has the strength and determination to stick to her beliefs. But to understand a problem you must look at all of it. Not just part of it. She is focused solely on religious aspect of her argument. I believe that there is more to it than that. I'm not attacking her as a person at all. I'm not even attacking her beliefs. I simply don’t agree with her beliefs for the stated reasons.

It isn't the tiger in the forest that kills us. What kills us is that which we don’t recognize as dangerous. We didn’t see it as dangerous because we were too arrogant in our sense of self. We thought we were too smart and superior to that unevolved bacteria to realize that it can bring a plague we cant cure. There are spiritual plagues too. If you don’t have a strong connection to what god truly is then you're lost. People leave their religions because those religions don’t fit the reality of their lives. Most Christians don’t follow their religion because their religion has no validity in their day to day lives. So they pick and choose the parts that work for them and ignore/discard the rest.

Darwin had a lot of valid points. Science is good for describing (understanding) the physical, a connection to god is good for describing the spiritual. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Going from one relationship to another is never easy but it has been done more than once on this planet. Even if you both realize you're not right for each other it’s a painful thing to go through but it usually doesn’t kill a person. Life is pain. There are moments of bliss, but bliss is fleeting. When you find it nurture it for as long as it exists. It will keep you during the periods when life is back to being pain. No relationship is pure bliss for every day it exists. There is ups and downs, it ebbs and flows. Some days its grand some days you're fighting over whatever it is that isn't working. The relationships that survive are those that involve a lot of work, compromise, and a willingness to see past the petty arguments and realize why you got together in the first place. Sometimes the relationships endure. Sometimes its better to call it an end and find someone else.

That which doesn’t change dies. Everything changes. The universe, people, religions, everything. This isn't a bad thing. Like a child moves from being the centre of its universe, in order to grow spiritually as a people or just as one person change is a requirement. As you learn about yourself, learn about god you change. What made sense to a person when they're 5 isn't what makes sense when that person has more awareness of what is around them. In order for a religion to survive it must fulfill the needs of the people who practice it. It must have a real world application to their lives. Otherwise it dies. That is the people who practice it will discard it for another. Christianity is facing this. It fragmented because it wasn’t able to fulfill the needs of the people who were practicing it. So they made little changes and by doing so made the religion fit their idea of what a religion should be. When the plagues of the middle ages hit, the roman catholic church was completely unable to protect their followers. This wasn’t the fault of the church, but the outcome was the church lost power. In losing power people tried to find a belief system that would fulfill their needs spiritually. Many religions have passed into history because they didn’t reflect the needs of the followers. No religious belief is exempt. So as an individual we need to actively find god on our own terms. This involves painful questions sometimes and sometimes the joy of enlightenment. Anyone who claims the path to god is easy is selling you something you don’t want to buy.

As for being an ape. There is only 2% difference in genetics between us and monkeys. So yes, we’re nothing more than monkeys who walk upright and talk. For that matter you can teach a monkey language. They are able to communicate if you teach a baby monkey sigh language. Just because they cant vocalize doesn’t mean they cant and don’t have language. Not even our soul makes us special because all that is alive has a soul. Human arrogance states we are special. We are not special at all. Although our willingness and ability to practice genocide on both ourselves and the world around us might count as “special”.

zmanutdz

Darwin didn’t say survival of the fittest. He said survival of those most able to adapt. It’s a fairly significant difference. Darwin realized that those who adapt to their surroundings fastest are most likely to survive as a species and an individual.

Change shouldn’t be something to be afraid of. As long as you decide for yourself what makes sense for your life change is a good thing. If you are letting someone think for you then you will find yourself in a place where you have no control. Once you have lost control of your life spiritually or physically then abuse will occur.

So Kitten, if what makes sense to you is following Islam down to every last word in the Koran by all means go for it. But to expect the entire world to follow you is a false hope. It simply isn't going to happen. Everyone has their own path to walk. There is more than one path to god. You need not follow my path any more than I need to follow yours. Be open minded enough to realize that what works for you may not work for other people. And that’s not a bad thing.

Kitten said...

Confessions of a Malamute:

“A few points” ??? Try a few hundred points!!! lol

To start with, u get an A* for ur essay...lol...on a serious note, i was very impressed :)

See the thing with u is, although our beliefs, viewpoints, and attitude to life varies, the arguments that u use to disagree with me, I AGREE with! U get one small teeny weenie point that u know I wont agree with, surround it with 7 or 8 points that I agree with, and leave me at a loss of how to answer u back! Grrr! U use philosophy in the most interesting ways and I have to admit, ur comments stand out for me :)

“You’re fighting a losing battle here”

That’s what makes it FUN for me! That is what’s making me enjoy it! Lol….
I’m well aware that with this type of discussion, it’s very unlikely that either party would change their opinion. That’s not the aim. Like I said before, there is no right and wrong answer. I just like the challenge of it. What’s the point of debating something that would be easy to win?

I know that most people don’t agree with me but that’s not an issue…as long as I’m expressing my opinions and I’m sticking to what I believe in, I don’t mind if the whole world stood against me…ermm...although that would be a rather scary concept...lol

“Humans are animals don’t kid yourself”

From one perspective…absolutely true. BUT, from another, we are superior in logic and intellect. In regards to mating and sex most animals act only according to instinct. Most humans, on the other hand, are inhibited and restrained in this area by conscience, principles, intellect and reason…or they should be anyway…

The thing u said about religion wanting control and power...I agree with that to some extent but my perception of religion differs to urs.

Love...hmm...lets just say love sucks!

“But to expect the entire world to follow you is a false hope”

Like I said…that’s not the aim of having this discussion. I’m just testing out my argumentative skills :p
lol no I’m joking. I just like to get an insight into peoples thoughts and way of seeing life.

“Be open minded enough to realize that what works for you may not work for other people”

Never even suggested that!


Caesar:
No offence was taken at all from what Malamute said but thank u for being so considerate. Ur sweeeeeeeeeet :)
I was completely flattered by what u said...I almost blushed! Lol :p

And hey u mr…I’m not YOUNG! U don’t have to worry about me…I can take care of myself. Kitten by name, tiger by nature... :p (oh my god, sorry guys...that sounds SO cheesy...lol)

“Wouldn't be better if you worry about what happening in Arabian (and Islamic) countries from disorder, annihilation and bloodshed?”

Hmm…not really. Why? Because I’m realistic. Caesar although it sadness me, there’s not much that I can do about that. Me worrying about that or discussing it will not help those countries and people in any way.
With religion, beliefs and thoughts like the ones we r discussing, its different. The way I see it...someone, somewhere will find an answer in what I’m saying, or what ur saying, or what everyone else is saying. A complete random stranger may stumble onto this page and find an answer he’s looking for in one of our comments. Sorry if I’m not making much sense...but I don’t know how to explain it.


Zmanutdz:

LOL!!!! I hope not!


Konfused Kid:

I’m not sure who exactly u were referring to in ur comment but its not very nice :(
(I didn’t understand it all but I got the general meaning!)

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Kitten;

I'm very blunt and straight forward in what I say. I'm glad you don’t take it personally as it isn't an attack on you or anyone else. It gets misinterpreted as this by a lot of people and I'm not too worried about that for the most part. As for arguing I LOVE to argue. I’ll debate/argue over things I don’t even believe simply for the joy of doing it. I once had an argument over which fly would take off from the wall first. The one on the left or the one on the right.

I took philosophy in university. The professor I had was very good. He hated two things in life. People who were religious (any religion) and sociologists. One thing he said on the first day of class I’ll never forget. He said “I will attack your beliefs with everything I have. This will do one of two things. I will destroy your beliefs or it will make them stronger. Both outcomes are good things”. I learned a lot from him – mostly that I hated western philosophy.

When I say the word “you: it doesn’t always mean you in particular. In English we cant distinguish between you in the singular sense and you in the plural sense. It’s a deficiency of the language as far as I'm concerned. Where I live, the west coast of Canada we do in fact make a difference between the plural and the singular. Its said English doesn’t have dialects but I don’t believe it. Put a Newfoundlander, and Aussie, a Brit and a Canadian in the same room and see what happens to the language! On the west coast here we use you for singular and yous for the plural. Yous is NOT proper English, but it works to make the needed difference. So I’m going to use it from here on. Yous here means a group of people or everyone reading a text. You by itself is exactly that. You speak English very well btw.

I think we might agree on more than just a little if we compared notes. I tend to look for the bits I don’t agree with and go from there. Keeps an argument going ;-) I do believe that people need some semblance of morality. I’m an anarchist politically but anarchy doesn’t mean a lack of rules. It just means those rules aren't imposed by outside forces. It means deciding what is acceptable values for you to live by yourself. Those who cant live reasonable will be sorted out quickly. We don’t need a government to decide for us. I try to keep my rules simple and clear as possible. I lived in the forest by myself for a year and the forest is anything but wild. The rules are always the same and they never change. The rules you learn here can be applied to any forest anywhere. The only thing that changes are the plants and animals you share the forest with. I wish the same could be said of humans. What is acceptable to one group in terms of rules is totally unacceptable to another group. And you don’t have to go far to find yourself totally in an alien world in terms of what is socially acceptable. Too many people are raised with a certain belief system and then never examine it again. This leads to strife, bigotry, hate, fear, and war.

One last thing… “Well behaved women rarely make history” Here’s to some misbehaving ;-)

And on a totally different note I ran into my first bear of the season today in the forest. I have pics of said critter on my blog for those who are interested.

Caesar of Pentra said...

Malamute,
Hehe... I didn't expect you give us a lesson in Linguism also. :))
It's good to have such a blogger around. You feed our conversation with interesting thoughtful themes.

ZmanutdZ,
Congratualtions... Manchester UTD have won the premiership. Too bad they were beaten by the Italian giants AC Milan in the UEFA Champions League.

Kitten,
They told me that I have a gift in butter girls up :D
What happend to your exams anyway? I don't want my blog to be a source of distraction for you.. :P
btw, you don't understand Arabic?

الفتى الحائر
والله رح يخبلني هذا الولد.. لك بابا انت ليش هيج؟ مو اني اعرفك كلش زين انت اكبر من هاي التفاهات و عندك وجهات نظر تطلعنا كلنا كسر. إذا عندك شغلة زينة احكيها و إذا ما عندك هم احكيها، بس لا تتجاوز على الاخرين. اني اعرفك حباب و بعد ما تسويها.. زين؟

btw, 13!
Since you are interested in "Nippon", I heard that "Shinto" don't suppress any illegal sexual activities.... How about that? ;)

Kitten said...

Malamute, I should have guessed that u have a degree in philosophy. I wouldn’t be surprised if u have a degree in spirituality as well.

I should hope that I speak English well! I have been raised in the UK and it’s the only language that I can speak well!
Which brings me to Caesar’s Q...I do understand Arabic, but only if simple day-to-day Arabic is being used. However, I don’t speak it very well (which is a disgrace), and when I do, I speak with an Egyptian dialect rather than an Iraqi one (which is a double disgrace because I’m Iraqi...lol).

My exams were fine. I only had 2 and last one was on Friday. Just in case you're wondering, I have just completed my 4th year of a Pharmacy degree and I have one year to go before I graduate. I cant wait! I’m sick of studying!

Caesar...I must admit...you’re a charmer :)

One final thing...
U guys must think I’m such a goody-two-shoes, who sticks to the rules at all times...lol! Well sorry to disappoint u, but thats not the case! I do get up to my fair share of mischief :p

Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend :) My regards to all.


P.S. btw malamute, ‘yous’ is sometimes used here too when addressing a group of ppl. Just to let u know...:)

aNarki-13 said...

Hello Pentra:

"btw, 13!
Since you are interested in "Nippon", I heard that "Shinto" don't suppress any illegal sexual activities.... How about that? ;)"


and your point is?

first: those practices were not from shinto as much as they were from the general culture;

they also practiced homosexuality and pedophilia openly, without any stigma whatsoever. they felt that ANYTHING that gave you pleasure, was ok.
so basically back then you could go 69 a donkey if you so wished, and it'd still be ok.

third: Dont assume that i am wapanese because i have kanji in my profile.

i'm interested in all of the east, not just japan.
i.e. the philippines, thailand, china, india, etc.

Confessions of a Malamute said...

I don’t have a degree in philosophy, I just studied it since I was in my early teens. I’ve always been interested in philosophy and religion. Mostly eastern philo though, western philosophy asks all the wrong sorts of questions. Being that you’ve been raised in England I'm sure you get up to your bit of mischief down the pubs and wherever… Now why does that amuse me so much ?

Caesar; I think she likes you. Quick, get yourself to England and you two can hook up lmao… Though I don’t think you’d be getting any sex till you two get married ;-) Reminds me of the song by the Georgia Satellites ›

I got a little change in my pocket going jingle lingle ling
Want to call you on the telephone baby I give you a ring
But each time we talk I get the same old thing
Always no huggin no kissin until I get a wedding ring
My honey my baby dont put my love upon no shelf
She said dont give no lies and keep your hands to yourself

Cruel baby baby baby why you want to treat me this way
You know Im still your lover boy I still feel the same way
Thats when she told me a story bout free milk and a cow
And she said no huggin no kissin until I get a wedding vow
My honey my baby dont put my love upon no shelf
She said dont hand me no lies and keep your hands to yourself

You see I wanted her real bad and I was about to give in
Thats when she started talkin true love started talkin about sin
I said honey Ill live with you for the rest of my life
She said no huggin no kissin until you make me your wife
My honey my baby dont put my love on no shelf
She dont hand me no lies and keep your hands to yourself.

Kitten; here is a pharmacy song for you http://www.union.ic.ac.uk/medic/fitness/tracks/The%20Drugs%20Song.mp3

I have a friend in Ireland who did the same course as you and she thought the song was quite appropriate to the course.

Caesar of Pentra said...

Kitten!
Thanks alot.
I know how it feels when you can't speak your mother language well. For the first five years of my life I was raised in

Italy. My parents told me that they had to communicate with me in Italian cuz I couldn't speak Arabic well. I learnt

Italiano from TV. Unfortunately, I can't speak much of Italian right now. I forgot it by time.

Hey, 13!
1. I said ANY sexual activities.. Which includes homosexuality, Pedophilia and perhaps even bestiality.
2. I know these acts are driven from the Japanese culture, but I said that Shinto scripts don't oppose these acts.
3. That's cool, man! I guess you like thier chicks too :P

Malamute!
That was an awesome funny song.... Hehehe, you have a wonderful sense of humor. But *whispers* "do you think any

lady reads my blog, will feel safe with me??" Hehehe...
Anyway, Brit dudes would be so dumb to let such a cute smart kitty pass by... ;)

Kitten said...

loooooool!!!!

Malamute! I LOVED both songs! esp the drugs one..its gr88888!

and erm...sorry guys, but im already taken...:p

Caesar thanks for the compliment :)

Caesar of Pentra said...

Taken by whom?? By Aliens?! :))

aNarki-13 said...

Pentra:

your debate-fu is weak, grasshopper.

i still dont get the reason for shoving japan into the convo out of the blue..
sigh.

Kitten said...

lol Caesar

No comment...:)

Confessions of a Malamute said...

no comment Kitten, after all that you wrote and then you say youre taken... then no comment... hmmmm

Im sure there is a story there, and we'd all like to hear it ;-)

Confessions of a Malamute said...

translation youre not getting off the hook that easy... spill it girl

Caesar of Pentra said...

*prepares himself to listen attentivly to Kitten's story* :P

zmanutdz said...

*Hovering in the background, having already joined the waiting masses for the Kitten odyssey *

Kitten said...

“Once upon a time...on a far away land...where fairies and pixies made wishes come true...there was a little kitten named Kitten...”

Lol! GUYS!!! There is no story!!! There’s nothing to spill...grrrrrr!!!
Ermm...all I meant was, there is a Mr Special in my life...so erm, my heart is already taken...ehm...'blushing at this point' :p

Ok u can all behave now, and stop ur imaginations from running wild...:p lol

Confessions of a Malamute said...

yes we can behave and we can stop our imaginations... that’s not the question. The question is: will we ???

The answer to the question is: NO! we probably wont… isn't life grand that way ? Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water along comes another shark to play with you…

So lets review the little facts you have given us:

1. you oppose sex outside of marriage
2. you have a “Mr. Special”

So this can lead us to conclude that:

1. you are married (my condolences, a person doesn’t know what happiness is till they get married. Then its too late ;-) )
2. you have a boyfriend in the closet.

Out of the 2 possibilities I prefer #2 cos it’s a lot more fun to tease you with. So lets see here… I assume the boy Mr. Special knows you like him or is this a wish upon a star thing where you try to find reasons to be in the same room as him that seem legitimate without allowing him to see you drool ? Now if he IS a bf… tell us how you manage to um… keep things “godly” That is when things become heated do you then have a prayer session to… um… alleviate “tensions” ?

Think of this as education. As a westerner I’d like to know how Islam works and what you do to take your mind off natural body functions. Caesar would like to know too cos he’s going a little banana’s when it comes to the ladies and lately cold showers just aren't working for him.

So please enlighten us. :-D We are waiting…

zmanutdz said...

Malamute,

Always had similar questions for Iraqi ladies but never got the answer, although I know how some dealt with the situation with some rather non-godly manners.

Waiting for Kitten

aNarki-13 said...

my money is on that she either has a fiance, or someone close to obtaining that status: (long term BF which the mother knows about)

now here's the thing: "our" kind of BF/GF relationships are not all sexually active. so basically its like having your 9yr old son coming to tell you he has a girlfriend, only with larger bodies and suppressed feelings.

oh and by the by, its not that hard to keep your appendages concealed. administering self-control is the only thing that separates us from the rest of animaldom.

propagating human genes does NOT mean swinging our d*cks around hoping to wrangle a genetically-valid heffer.

Confessions of a Malamute said...

anarki-13

oh and by the by, its not that hard to keep your appendages concealed. administering self-control is the only thing that separates us from the rest of animaldom.

Clearly you have never been to what we call a "meat market" that is a night club. You will find little difference between a howler monkey (who has sex on average of every 45mins throughout its life), and the people in the bar who arent that far behind.

Suppressed feelings are generally not very healthy. No you dont must needs act on every feeling you have, but you dont need god as a baby sitter either. Or your religion. Left to themselves humans are in fact capable of making their own choices in life. Unless of course you want someone else to think and decide for you.

Monkeys have only 2% difference in genetics from us. Dolphins have been shown to have self awareness. Bears are capable of showing regret for their actions. Wolves are capable of advanced planning and have very long memories. Wolves are also capable of compassion. Crows not only have language they watch out for each other while they eat, and in fact will lead other crows and share food. Ravens will lead wolves to food and wolves and ravens will share food from the wolf kill. A buck deer will sacrifice its life to protect its offspring and the mother of its offspring. So tell me what exactly does make us so superior ? Our ability to destroy ? Or perhaps its our religious hatred of one another ? Maybe it’s the fact we’re the only animal species that practices genocide ? Then again it could be our ability to have a concept called crime. Animals don’t have it. They do have a conscience though. Something a lot of humans seem to be lacking. The only thing that makes us special is our unending arrogance that we are better than animals. And I don’t consider that something to be proud of.

Here are two important questions for you. I’ve asked them above, but Kitten was smart enough to side step them. So I’ll ask you

Do you think you live outside god ?
Do you believe god is perfect?

Answer those questions and I will prove to you your religion can not possibly be real. Yet God is real. Religion on the other hand… smoke and noise that is aimed at controlling everything you do. If you want “god” as your babysitter fine. Personally I'm capable of my own sense of morality I don’t need a so called expert telling me “god wills it” and all other manner of nonsense and lies.

Caesar of Pentra said...

Well, I am with 13 for most of his say. Anyway, I recommend you all to watch this video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/541072/amazing_relationship/
It helps to prove ur theory, Malamute, about animals and compassion

Caesar of Pentra said...

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/541072/amazing_relationship/
that's the full url ;)

Caesar of Pentra said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Caesar of Pentra said...

metacafe.com/watch/541072/amazing_relationship/

aNarki-13 said...

:) Malamute:

"Do you think you live outside god ?
Do you believe god is perfect?"

first, to answer those, you'll have to define God. how do you do that?

-is he the guy with the beard on the roof of the Sistine?

-is he the guy who came out of the cave hand in hand with Lazarus after 3 days of being dead?

-Jehova? Yehweh? Allah?

-or?

in my opinion the concept of God describes the infinite "glue" which keeps the finite universe together:

Do you think you live outside of God?

trick question: God is not a separate, entity limited by human conception.

Do you think God is perfect?

God IS perfect, the human definition of God, however, is not.
(we are imperfect by definition, and henceforth cannot discern the perfect. rule of thumb is, its sorta like everything that is NOT Paris Hilton)

aNarki-13 said...

"Do you think you live outside god ?
Do you believe god is perfect?

Answer those questions and I will prove to you your religion can not possibly be real. Yet God is real. Religion on the other hand… smoke and noise that is aimed at controlling everything you do."

My cousin got interested in your comment and wished to voice his opinion: here goes:

----------
Hello :)

I don't wish to turn this into a theological debate, but the quote above certainly demands some theology here.

You see, it is generally accepted in perhaps all forms of esotericism that God is the ultimate truth - unconditional and absolutely abstract - beyond all forms of expression. Do you not think that that is the reason why the Tarot were brought forth in images and not words?

The Qabbalists and Hermeticists said that the only way to define God is to defile Him, thus giving rise to the expression: "Ain Sof" - the Absolute State of Everything. Hinduism knew this entity as Brahman, expressed by the "Aum." Zurvanite Zoroastrians knew Him as Zurvan - androgynous and infinite - etc, etc...

Words were used by the adepts for the sole reason of allowing ordinary people like you and me to understand the abstract nature of the Absolute.

So I'll only answer your questions with "Wu" - so for more, read about Zen Buddhism... ;)

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Good answers Anarki-13 =) Actually your definition of god and mine are quite similar. And yes they are trick questions for sure. They we used to trap you into an argument you couldn’t win, and you managed to escape the trap quite nicely. I'm impressed =) As for Paris Hilton being godly… She is probably not godly, but I bet she’s crook in bed so I’d be willing to worship at the sacred fountain for a few days ;-)

For everyone else the point of the questions is this:

In ME religions, that is Christianity, Judaism, and I suspect Islam too, it has been the common thought that we are separate entities from God. We are not. Our definition of god is hampered by religion.

In western theology there is in fact a definition of god. Part of that idea is of god being perfect. It also includes the idea that we are separate from god. Both conditions can in fact exist. The problem is in interacting with that perfection. If we are separate from a god that is perfect we cant interact with that god. The reason being is in the nature of the definition of perfection. That which is perfect is by definition static and unchanging. To interact with it demands that something is exchanged. Once something is exchanged by any means, the thing you are interacting with (a perfect god in this case) changes. Once god changes, god is no longer perfect and by definition no longer god.

Those two questions have been floating around western theology for at least 100 years and probably much longer. So far there has been no answer to them.

There is no answer to them because religion fails in its basic precept of what god is and what our place is in relation to god.

We are not outsiders. We are a part of god. We are all part of the divine.

Christianity demands a follower to have blind faith because it has this fatal flaw. It is fearful of what you will learn once you start to ask questions. Fundamental questions that should have answers to them. There is no reason why a person cant question the nature of god and find some logical meaningful answers. Those who demand that you don’t ask questions have something to hide. What they are hiding is power. Their power and control over you. Their control comes through rules that are nonsense (don’t eat pork for instance, don’t have sex out of marriage etc.). It comes through instilling fear. When I was in my mid teens I read a book that was meant for priests only. It was a training manual for dealing with and controlling the congregation. A section in it talked of the importance to instill fear into the congregation as a means to control the “true believers”. Why should be fear god ? I have well and truly never understood that. If god is compassion and love then where does the fear part come in ? It comes in by humans who seek to impose their definitions of god on others. Once they are able to do this it leads to them having power. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It allows the Roman Catholic Church in the middle ages to murder up to 9 million women in the name of religious purity. These were the witch trials. Add in the crusades, add in the forced conversions of conquered people and you can add in a death toll approaching 500,000,000 at its high end. It would certainly not be less than 350 million. Up to 170 million natives were deliberately killed in the US alone in their Indian Wars. All because the religion of the invaders taught them that their religion was the only correct one, and all others should be killed. Acts of genocide unparalleled in the history of mankind all for a religion that supposedly bases itself in love forgiveness and compassion. The hypocrisy of this boggles the mind. How someone can follow such a religion is simple. Don’t think. Don’t ask questions. Adhere to blind obedience. Otherwise the house of cards will fall down. And those in power will lose their power and they don’t want that to happen.

Anarki-13’s cousin:

A disciple asked a Master what was Zen.
The Master took off his shoe, put it on his head and walked away.

Have you ever read the I Ching or the Tao Te Ching, or any of Han Shan’s writings ?

aNarki-13 said...

Malamute:

"If we are separate from a god that is perfect we cant interact with that god. The reason being is in the nature of the definition of perfection. That which is perfect is by definition static and unchanging. To interact with it demands that something is exchanged. Once something is exchanged by any means, the thing you are interacting with (a perfect god in this case) changes."

well put :)

and i'll ask my cousin and report, but i wager he did read them, he takes his philosophy religiously ;)

Kitten said...

lol...I’m away for a couple of days and I come back to find that iv missed a lot!!! Malamute u ask the most awkward questions...lol!!!

First of all...how did I get myself into this position? GULP! Y r we discussing my personal life???

Erm...Anarki said it...SELF-CONTROL!! Self-discipline, willpower, strength of an individual all come into it. Most importantly for me is faith...

Faith in Islam is a complete submission to God (Allah) and to His commands (the Quran). To have that kind of faith, gives u strength...and erm...self-control.

And of course, it helps when u dress modestly...no mini-skirts...no cleavage hanging in his face...no him walking around in his boxer-shorts...etc, etc :) :p

Innocent flirting and teasing is acceptable if u know it wound not lead to anything further...but seduction is a no-no! (btw…pls don’t ask me to define ‘innocent flirting and teasing’...give me a break...lol )

And correct me if I’m wrong, but the way I see it is that humans tend to want what they can’t have...and when they get it, they get bored and the novelty wears off...
So, my motto is ‘play hard-to-get, don’t give him what he wants, and keep him on his toes...until he puts a ring on ur finger’ lol! :p :p :p

Finally just to gratify ur curiosity and to provoke it at the same time :p...he’s not my husband, not my fiancé and its very unlikely that we will ever get married. Its too complicated and personal to explain, but lets just say that the differences between us are way too big.

Please refrain urselves from asking more questions...its doubtful that they will be answered :p

Thats all I'm going to say on this subject...good day to u all :)

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Kitten

youre fun to tease... Too bad I dont know you in person. It would amuse me to watch you turn redder and redder ;-)

zmanutdz said...

' So, my motto is ‘play hard-to-get, don’t give him what he wants, and keep him on his toes...until he puts a ring on ur finger’ lol! :p :p :p '

And speak of Iraqi guys giving up on the ' hard-to-get ' Iraqi girls and looking for other alternatives. Only yourselves to blame ya iraqiyat :D,

Sorry if that is getting too personal, kitten, :)

Caesar of Pentra said...

Zmanutdz,
do you read my mind? I mean we share smiliar thoughts. You are right about "hard to get" criticism. Some bigheaded chicks don't have any idea that their tactics may overturn on them.

Kitten,
O' dear! I know you won't answer any further questions, but I hope you could kindly answer this...
Why is not possible to get married with that Mr. X? Does he follow a religion other than Islam? Or he is just a close friend of yours? If you can't answer those "personal" questions, it's fine. But I hope you can answer the second one.

Kitten said...

loooool!!!!

Malamute,
ur not the only one who thinks that...EVERY1 likes to tease me...dono y...i think i must have a sticker on my forehead saying 'tease me pls'..lool!!! :p
And i blush sooooo easily...so i think guys really get a kick out of making me turn 7 different shades of red...lol

zmanutdz,
'And speak of Iraqi guys giving up on the ' hard-to-get ' Iraqi girls and looking for other alternatives.'

who said he's iraqi? ur not the only ones looking for alternatives :p
And its been 9 months now...y hasnt he given up yet???

Caesar,
pls dont misunderstand 'playing hard-to-get'!! It doesnt have to mean ur a big-headed chick or that ur stuck up!!!
For gods sake, do i sound bigheaded to u??? (dont say yes...i have sharp claws...lol :p )

when i say 'play hard-to-get', i dont mean i stick my nose up in the air and look at him as if hes something thats stuck to my shoe!!!

'Playing hard to get' is just a relationship tactic in which the pursuee deliberately holds the pursuer at bay in an effort to appear more alluring and selective. Playing hard to get is not the same as BEING hard to get.

By playing hard to get, a woman establishes a sense of mystery about herself. Men also play hard to get in order to appear more confident and intriguing.
I assure u that many women prefer to work on a challenging relationship than to settle for a man who is always accessible ;)

Hmm Caesar...since u asked so nicely, i'll answer u just this once...:p

He is a muslim but ermm...hes from a different sector of islam (I KNOW that it shouldnt matter but im sure u can understand y that is a big issue at the moment...)

Like i said before, the differences between us are too big and the obstacles that exist are too many...

Anyway ppl, pls continue ur discussion about God...it is the most interesting so far :)

zmanutdz said...

Kitten,

I did not assume that he is Iraqi. I just said that attitudes like ' hard-to get '..etc helps in encouraging Iraqi guys to give up on those ' hard to get ' Iraqi girls.

Sorry, and now back to religion..etc, wishing you all the best in this issue . ( I would not like to be interrogated online about my personal life as well, kitten. )So no more questions from me, you are off the hook :) ( Unless Malamute has some other questions ( of course he does ) lol )

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Actually I don’t have any questions for her… I do have a statement though.

Kitten you said:

He is a muslim but ermm...hes from a different sector of islam (I KNOW that it shouldnt matter but im sure u can understand y that is a big issue at the moment...)

Like i said before, the differences between us are too big and the obstacles that exist are too many...

It doesn’t matter what part of Islam he believes. What matters in how you feel. There is nothing worse in life than looking back years later and saying “I wish I had…” No one escapes life without regrets, it just isn't possible. The only part that makes the obstacles and differences between you both too big is how OTHER people feel about YOUR relationships. In short its none of their damn business. If you live your life trying to please others you will please no one. Everyone will have an opinion on what you should do and how THEY think YOU should be. If you give into that you will be miserable. Yes you might get some tweekers when you announce that you're not following Crazy Aunt Lunatic’s idea’s of who you should marry, but eventually they’ll shut the fuck up and live with YOUR choice. You get the advantage of being with who YOU want to be with.

Love is heaven and hell mixed into one emotion. Sometimes we get over it, but sometimes it haunts us for the rest of our lives. So stop making excuses for other peoples idea’s of how you should be. Make plans for how YOU want you to be. No one has to live your life. They don’t have to wake up at 3am wondering how the hell you got here, and why is everything shit, and who is this person you ended up with and any other host of question you never want to ask yourself let alone try to answer or live with.

If you see a real future with Mr. Special then work for that future. Anything worth having comes with work. It comes with risk and it comes with rewards too. Don’t sell you or hi short, just cos his clan opens the morning egg from the opposite end your clan does. Those differences mean nothing. Whats in your heart means everything. Good luck =)

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Up to 170 million natives were deliberately killed in the US alone in their Indian Wars. CofaM

While I don't doubt that the Indian Wars were a terrible occurrence, I do question these figures. There are no hard and fast population numbers for the Native American population during this time period. And the estimates that I have seen are below the 170 million figure you give. Also, disease spread by the European settlers played a huge role in the decimation of the Native American population. That in itself was a tragedy, but it had nothing to do with religion.

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Lynne

It has everything to do with religion. Those blankets that were handed out to the Natives were infected with anything from small pox to TB. Your government knew that, approved of it, and used it as a weapon of genocide. The first thing the settlers and your government did was to try to convert the “heathen”. All the christian assholes running around inside and outside government who felt that they could do whatever they wanted to the Natives because their bible tells them to go out and “witness” their religion. The practice of Native traditional religions was outlawed as well as destroying their language. Religion provided the moral basis to justify those murders. They're not like us, they don’t have the right religion, kill them all. God wills it, god is on our side.

Thanksgiving For A National Victory

Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks?
To murder men and give God thanks!
Desist, for shame!-proceed no further;
God won't accept your thanks for Murther!

-Robert Burns
1793

As for 170 million people that is the upper limit. No serious study puts the number below 35 – 50 million. Still making it the largest act of genocide ever perpetrated in the history of mankind. Great start to your country isn't it ? Throughout the history of your country upwards of 250 million people have been murdered around the world in your dirty nasty wars that your government sponsors. And people claim what Adolph Hitler and Josef Stalin were bad. Both of them put together have nothing on the US government. At least Hitler was honest about his hatred of Jews. You knew where you stood with Hitler. The US government lies endlessly about how its all about helping other nations. Its never helped a single nation in its entire history nor has it ever wanted to. In the Philippines for instance 1 million + people were murdered by your troops so that you could have an outpost in the pacific. Nice act of genocide there. 1 million people die so that you can set up military bases. What a proud american moment, brought to the world by those who love freedom and democracy. Well freedom for themselves and the illusion of democracy. Ballot box stuffing has been an american tradition since day one. And lately you're not doing so good on the freedom part either, what with secret jail that use torture as a day to day means of getting information; what with revoking the 800 year old law of habeas corpses making unjust detention legal; what with spying on your own citizens just like you accused those nasty ol’ commies of doing to their poor downtrodden people. Then there is the secret courts with secret “evidence” (obtained by torture in case you didn’t get it the first time). I remember well when you used to scream about those commies doing that. Couldn’t ever happen here you said. Its happening everyday and your people sit there blind dumb and uncaring. The hypocrisy of your nation is only surpassed by the idiocy and lack of education of your people. Care to try to justify these breeches of international law and basic human morality ? Or are you the sort that just mindlessly follows that retarded baboon that never was elected but somehow sits in the white house.

Here is a list of dirty filthy wars throughout your history. Wars of genocide and aggression, normally carried out against helpless nation because the US is nothing if not cowardly. Like the bully on the block you keep your mouths shut when someone can stomp on you, but you're more than happy to harass the 4yo kids in the playground and feel oh so very tough later. Your nation disgusts me. Built on lies and murder and run by a people who don’t know and don’t care that they don’t know. When you read the list bare in mind that the numbers of dead have been deliberately kept to as low as possible. For instance it puts the number of dead in Germany in WW2 as being only 200,000. The real number is 3.5 million soldiers killed and 2 million civilians killed. The writer of the list was an american and I guess he couldn’t handle the enormity of the crimes your nation is responsible for.

Basic Statistics for United States Imperialism

I’ll get you started on the list by copying the tinpot dictators you have installed and supported so that your nation could steal the natural resources of foreign nations, and enslave the people there so that you can have the fruits of their slave labour.

Below is a quote from the website above:

“Alphabetical list of rightwing dictators, reactionary movements, and other reprehensible figures empowered/materially supported by the US: [under construction] It seems as though the number one criterion for getting a job as the head of a client state is a willingness to butcher leftists. Indeed, the use of unsavory rightists by the United States began neither with the anti-Castro Cuban émigré community, nor with the Afghan mujaheddin alumni, oh Nelly no!
[the dates provided are sloppily done, I concede. At times, they are just the general duration of the given regime (e.g., Selassie). Most others are the duration of US support while the regime lasted (e.g., Hitler, Saddam Hussein, etc.)]
Abacha, Sani (Nigeria: 1993-2000)
Afwerki, Isaias (Eritrea: 1993-2002)
Amin, Idi (Uganda: 1971-1979)
Arévalo, Marco (Guatemala: 1985-1991)
Bakr, Ahmad (Iraq: 1968-1979)
Banzer Suarez, Hugo (Bolivia: 1971-1978)
Bao Dai (Vietnam: 1949-1955)
Barak, Ehud (Israel: 1999-2001)
Barre, Siad (Somalia: 1979-1991)
Batista, Fulgencio (Cuba: 1940-44/1952-1959)
Begin, Menachem (Israel: 1977-1983)
Ben-Gurion, David (Israel: 1948-1953, 1955-1963)
Betancourt Bello, Rumulo (Venezuela: 1959-1964)
Bokassa, Jean-Bedel (Central African Republic: 1966-1976)
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal (Brunei: 1984-2002)
Botha, P.W. (South Africa: 1978-1989)
Branco, Humberto (Brazil: 1964-1966)
Carmona, Pedro (Venezuela: 2002)
Cedras, Raoul (Haiti: 1991)
Chamoun, Camille (Lebanon: 1952-1958)
Chiang Kai-shek (China: 1928-1949/Taiwan: 1949-1975)
Christiani, Alfredo (El Salvador: 1989-1994)
Chun Doo Hwan (S. Korea: 1980-1988)
Cordova, Roberto (Honduras: 1981-1985)
Diaz, Porfirio (Mexico: 1876-1911)
Diem, Ngo Dinh (S. Vietnam: 1955-1963)
Doe, Samuel (Liberia: 1980-90)
Duvalier, Francois (Haiti: 1957-1971)
Duvalier, Jean Claude (Haiti: 1971-1986)
Eshkol, Levi (Israel: 1963-1969)
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz (Saudi Arabia: 1969-2002)
Feisal, King (Iraq: 1939-1958)
Franco, Francisco (Spain: 1937-1975)
Fujimori, Alberto (Peru: 1990-2002)
Habre, Hissen (Chad: 1982-1990);
Hassan II (Morocco: 1961-1999)
Hitler, Adolf (Germany: 1933-1939)
Hussein, King (Jordan: 1952-1999)
Hussein, Saddam (Iraq: 1979-1990)
Kabila, Laurent (CDR: 1997-1998)
Karzai, Hamid (Afghanistan: 2001-2002)
Khan, Ayub (Pakistan: 1958-1969)
Koirala, B. (Nepal: 1959-1960)
Lon Nol (Cambodia: 1970-1975)
Marcos, Ferdinand (Philippines: 1965-1986)
Martinez, Maximiliano (El Salvador: 1931-1944)
Meir, Golda (Israel: 1969-1974)
Meles Zenawi (Ethiopia: 1995-2002)
Mobutu Sese Seko (Zaire: 1965-1997)
Moi, Daniel (Kenya: 1978-2002)
Montt, Efrain (Guatemala: 1982-1983)
Mubarak, Hosni (Egypt: 1981-2002)
Museveni, Yoweri (Uganda: 1986-2002)
Musharaf, Pervez (Pakistan: 1999-2002)
Mussolini, Benito (Italy: 1922-1939)
Netanyahu, Benjamin (Israel: 1996-1999)
Noriega, Manuel (Panama: 1983-1989)
Odria, Manuel (Peru: 1948-1956)
Omar, Mohamed (Afghanistan: 1996-2001)
Ozal, Turgut (Turkey: 1989-1993)
Pahlevi , Rezi (Iran: 1953-1979)
Papadopoulos, George (Greece: 1967-1973)
Park Chung Hee (S. Korea: 1960-1979)
Pastrana, Andres (Colombia: 1998-2002)
Peres, Shimon (Israel: 1977, 1984-1986, 1995-1996)
Perez Jimenez, Marcos (Venezuela: 1952-58)
Pinilla, Gustavo (Colombia: 1953-1957)
Pinochet, Augusto (Chile: 1973-1990)
Pol Pot (Cambodia: 1975-1998)
al-Qaddafi, Muammar (Libya: 1969-1971)
Rabin, Yitzhak (Israel: 1974-1977, 1992-1995)
Rabuka, Sitiveni (Fiji: 1987, 1992-1999)
Al Sadat, Anwar (Egypt: 1970-1981)
Selassie, Halie (Ethiopia: 1941-1974)
Salazar, Antonio (Portugal: 1932-1968)
Saud, Abdul Aziz (Saudi Arabia: 1944-1969)
Seaga, Edward (Jamaica: 1980-1989)
Shamir, Yitzhak (Israel: 1983-1984; 1986-1992)
Sharett, Moshe (Israel: 1953-1955)
Sharon, Ariel (Israel: 2001-2002)
Smith, Ian (Rhodesia: 1965-1979)
Somoza Sr., Anastasio (Nicaragua: 1936-1956)
Somoza Jr., Anastasio (Nicaragua: 1963-1979)
Stroessner, Alfredo (Paraguay: 1954-1989)
Suharto, General (Indonesia: 1966-1999)
Syngman Rhee (S. Korea: 1948-1960)
Tolbert, William (Liberia: 1971-1980)
Trujillo, Rafael (Dominican Republic: 1930-1960)
Tubman, William (Liberia: 1944-1971)
Uribe, Alvaro (Colombia: 2002)
Videla, Jorge (Argentina: 1976-1981)
Yeltsin, Boris (Russia: 1991-1999)
Zaim, Hosni (Syria: 1949)
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed (Pakistan: 1977-1988)”

Quite the list of motherfuckers isn't it ? You should be proud to be an american. The land of the free the home of the brave indeed. For a country that claims to be based in christian values you sure are messed up. Go pick up that bible you're all so fond of spewing from and read the part that says “Thou Shalt NOT Kill”. Keep reading it until you get it into your thick skulls what that means. But then Moses himself couldn’t bother following it. The first thing he did after delivering the 10 commandments was murder 3000 people who wouldn’t wait patiently for him to come off the mountainside after he wandered off listening to voices only he could hear. Speaking of the 10 commandments there was originally 42 of them. See Moses was Egyptian and The 42 Divine Principles of the Goddess Maat was where he ripped off the 10 commandments from.

It had everything to do with religion. It always does. Religion is the moral prop to justify anything evil that governments in power want to do.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

CofaM,

I think, as someone may have pointed out earlier in this thread, to look further than the surface of events or situations is necessary to make informed opinions. Otherwise, one could be accused of merely being a propagandist, no?

I will not take up space in Caesar's comments section to address the numerous situations you have laid at our door. However, I will address a little the accusations of genocide by the United States towards the Native American population.

I still dispute your population figure. As do others. I do not doubt whatsoever that what happened to Native Americans was indeed a tragedy, but to label it genocide, is to misrepresent history.

Although I do not normally like to use Wikepedia as a source. It is a nice place to start.

If you were to look at the sources cited at the bottom you would find this.

I will copy a little of what is there for those who are not really interested in reading it in it's entirety.

Ward Churchill, taking the argument a step further than Stannard, asserts that there was nothing unwitting or unintentional about the way the great bulk of North America’s native population disappeared: "it was precisely malice, not nature, that did the deed." In brief, the Europeans were engaged in biological warfare.

Unfortunately for this thesis, we know of but a single instance of such warfare, and the documentary evidence is inconclusive. In 1763, a particularly serious uprising threatened the British garrisons west of the Allegheny mountains. Worried about his limited resources, and disgusted by what he saw as the Indians’ treacherous and savage modes of warfare, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, commander-in-chief of British forces in North America, wrote as follows to Colonel Henry Bouquet at Fort Pitt: "You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians [with smallpox] by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method, that can serve to extirpate this execrable race."

Bouquet clearly approved of Amherst's suggestion, but whether he himself carried it out is uncertain. On or around June 24, two traders at Fort Pitt did give blankets and a handkerchief from the fort’s quarantined hospital to two visiting Delaware Indians, and one of the traders noted in his journal: "I hope it will have the desired effect." Smallpox was already present among the tribes of Ohio; at some point after this episode, there was another outbreak in which hundreds died.

A second, even less substantiated instance of alleged biological warfare concerns an incident that occurred on June 20, 1837. On that day, Churchill writes, the U.S. Army began to dispense "'trade blankets' to Mandans and other Indians gathered at Fort Clark on the Missouri River in present-day North Dakota." He continues: Far from being trade goods, the blankets had been taken from a military infirmary in St. Louis quarantined for smallpox, and brought upriver aboard the steamboat St. Peter’s. When the first Indians showed symptoms of the disease on July 14, the post surgeon advised those camped near the post to scatter and seek "sanctuary" in the villages of healthy relatives.

In this way the disease was spread, the Mandans were "virtually exterminated," and other tribes suffered similarly devastating losses. Citing a figure of "100,000 or more fatalities" caused by the U.S. Army in the 1836-40 smallpox pandemic (elsewhere he speaks of a toll "several times that number"), Churchill refers the reader to Thornton’s American Indian Holocaust and Survival.

Supporting Churchill here are Stiffarm and Lane, who write that "the distribution of smallpox- infected blankets by the U.S. Army to Mandans at Fort Clark . . . was the causative factor in the pandemic of 1836-40." In evidence, they cite the journal of a contemporary at Fort Clark, Francis A. Chardon.

But Chardon's journal manifestly does not suggest that the U.S. Army distributed infected blankets, instead blaming the epidemic on the inadvertent spread of disease by a ship's passenger. And as for the "100,000 fatalities," not only does Thornton fail to allege such obviously absurd numbers, but he too points to infected passengers on the steamboat St. Peter's as the cause. Another scholar, drawing on newly discovered source material, has also refuted the idea of a conspiracy to harm the Indians.

Similarly at odds with any such idea is the effort of the United States government at this time to vaccinate the native population. Smallpox vaccination, a procedure developed by the English country doctor Edward Jenner in 1796, was first ordered in 1801 by President Jefferson; the program continued in force for three decades, though its implementation was slowed both by the resistance of the Indians, who suspected a trick, and by lack of interest on the part of some officials. Still, as Thornton writes: "Vaccination of American Indians did eventually succeed in reducing mortality from smallpox."

To sum up, European settlers came to the New World for a variety of reasons, but the thought of infecting the Indians with deadly pathogens was not one of them. As for the charge that the U.S. government should itself be held responsible for the demographic disaster that overtook the American-Indian population, it is unsupported by evidence or legitimate argument. The United States did not wage biological warfare against the Indians; neither can the large number of deaths as a result of disease be considered the result of a genocidal design.


To look at what has occurred only in the context of religion is short-sighted to say the least.

One more point I would make, unlike you Malamute, I don't hate anyone and most certainly not dead people.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

I forgot one little thing. There has been a lot of research done into this subject by many people in the United States itself. Unlike other people, we do not shirk trying to face our mistakes, crimes, or other misdeeds. Granted, we may not always be successful at finding a resolution, but we are not cowards.

Confessions of a Malamute said...

First off, there is Native blood in my family. The Coast Salish First Nation to be exact. As for Wikipedia… its not a valid source for anything. It was written by people who don’t know for people who don’t know. University students here in my province aren't permitted to use it as a source due to its many inaccuracies. Point in fact they were just forced to remove a so called “scholar” who claimed to have a doctorate in theology and taught at a university when in fact he had no degree whatsoever, never once taught at any university and knew nothing about the subjects he wrote about. He was forced to admit he made up most of his “data” when confronted. Wikipedia didn’t want to let him go as they had faith in his “knowledge”.

You are partly right in that no one knows how many natives were alive when the whites came to N. America. No one bothered to count how many there were, and after the genocide no one bothered to count how many were left. They simply didn’t care in the slightest. All they cared about was their stolen land.

Below are quotes from various educational institutions throughout the US and Canada.

Smallpox:

“Department of Medicine, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, 27599-7030, USA.

With the arrival of Europeans in the Western Hemisphere, Native American populations were exposed to new infectious diseases, diseases for which they lacked immunity. These communicable diseases, including smallpox and measles, devastated entire native populations. In this article, we focus on the effect of smallpox on the Native Americans from the 15th through the 19th centuries. Among the "new" infectious diseases brought by the Europeans, smallpox was one of the most feared because of the high mortality rates in infected Native Americans. This fear may have been well-founded, because the Native Americans were victims of what was probably one of the earliest episodes of biological warfare”.

“…Despite his fame, Jeffrey Amherst's name became tarnished by stories of smallpox-infected blankets used as germ warfare against American Indians. These stories are reported, for example, in Carl Waldman's Atlas of the North American Indian. Waldman writes, in reference to a siege of Fort Pitt (Pittsburgh) by Chief Pontiac's forces during the summer of 1763:
... Captain Simeon Ecuyer had bought time by sending smallpox-infected blankets and handkerchiefs to the Indians surrounding the fort -- an early example of biological warfare -- which started an epidemic among them. Amherst himself had encouraged this tactic in a letter to Ecuyer. [p. 108] …”
“… The broad exchange that followed is known as the Columbian Exchange and resulted in a two-way transfer of a number of plant and animal species - as well as virulent pathogens. This exchange of pathogens, particularly smallpox, was devastating to the Native American societies. Due to the resulting epidemics, they suffered a demographic implosion. Some regions lost over 90% of their original native population. At the time of the Columbian Exchange the estimated population of North and South America was at least 40 million. Due to imported pathogens, in a few centuries these populations fell to just a few million. This demographic catastrophe had some obvious ramifications, such as paving the way for easy conquest of the America's by European settlers” … “Smallpox is devastating when introduced naturally, but it is also a preferred weapon for "artificial" epidemics. The virus is deadly and easily transmitted, and can easily generate enough fear and panic so as to overwhelm any society. This is particularly true for biologically naive populations, such as the original Native Americans, where smallpox usually means death or permanent disability. …”

“ … The European invasion that began in the 15th century brought tremendous changes to the life of Indians. Even more damaging than the aggressive warfare of the Europeans was the introduction of new diseases, such as smallpox and measles, for which the indigenous Americans had no immunities. Another element of the invasion was the missionary impulse of both Catholic and Protestant Christians. Missionaries did not recognize Indian beliefs and cast the Indian religions as the work of the Christian devil. Thus early efforts by Europeans at Native education by Europeans focused on converting Indians to Christianity.
The missionaries' demand for total rejection of traditional practices was too much for most Indians to accept unless disease and war shattered their traditional lifeways. In addition, the Europeans' racism and ethnocentrism were too ingrained for them to accept the Indians as equals, even if the Indians spoke, dressed, and acted like European colonists. Thus one answer to the "Indian" problem was to eradicate them through wars and to push any survivors westward.
With the establishment of the United States, the federal government was faced with the "Indian problem." To deal with Indians, the government established the Indian Bureau in the War Department in 1824. This office was moved to the newly established Department of Interior in 1849 where it continues today.
Because most pioneers saw Indians as an impediment to progress, the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) became a tool to allow more rapid westward expansion. For example, under President Andrew Jackson, the government established the Indian Territory in present-day Oklahoma. Through what is now being called "ethnic cleansing," the federal government forced the Cherokee and other southeastern tribes to leave their ancestral homes and to walk a "Trail of Tears" to a new homeland that they were promised they could have forever. However the westward movement of settlers quickly ended this "final solution" of the Indian problem.


“ …(1622–1890) The process of invasion and conquest by which white people settled the present USA. The Europeans set out to remake the New World in the image of the old, if possible by persuasion, if necessary by force. The result was the destruction of the Indians' population, cultures, and economies.
The whites' two greatest allies were disease and their own culture, as represented by artifacts as diverse as the bottle and the Bible. The total hemispheric drop in native population was from roughly 90 million at first contact to a low of about 9 million. Microbes to which the Indians had no natural resistance were the prime cause. Faced with such a disaster, their culture collapsed as well, and its place was taken by European ways. Most Europeans believed this was as it should be. Thus the first Puritan settlers, knowing that an epidemic had just swept through Massachusetts, took it as God's way of clearing the region for them. …”

“Estimates of how many people were living in the Americas when Columbus arrived have varied tremendously; 20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons. Given the fragmentary nature of the evidence, precise pre-Columbian population figures are impossible to obtain, and estimates are often produced by extrapolation from comparatively small bits of data. In 1976, geographer William Denevan used these various estimates to derive a "consensus count" of about 54 million people … “

“Disease began to kill immense numbers of indigenous Americans soon after Europeans and Africans began to arrive in the New World, bringing with them the infectious diseases of the Old World. One reason this death toll was overlooked (or downplayed) is that disease, according to the widely held theory, raced ahead of European immigration in many areas, thus often killing off a sizable portion of the population before European observations (and thus written records) were made. Many European immigrants who arrived after the epidemics had already killed massive numbers of American natives assumed that the natives had always been few in number. The scope of the epidemics over the years was enormous, killing millions of people—in excess of 90% of the population in the hardest hit areas—and creating "the greatest human catastrophe in history, far exceeding even the disaster of the Black Death of medieval Europe.”

“Historian David Stannard is of the opinion that the indigenous peoples of America (including Hawaii) were the victims of a "Euro-American genocidal war." While conceding that the majority of the indigenous peoples fell victim to the ravages of European disease, he estimates that almost 100 million died in what he calls the American Holocaust. Stannard's perspective has been joined by Kirkpatrick Sale, Ben Kiernan, Lenore A. Stiffarm, and Phil Lane, Jr., among others; the perspective has been further refined by Ward Churchill, who has said that "it was precisely malice, not nature, that did the deed." -- the Europeans chose to spread diseases.”

There can be no doubt that what your government did to the natives of your country was genocide. To refuse to call it that is simply being obtuse. But then that’s one of the major failings of fascists. They are incapable of accepting responsibility for their actions. Its always someone elses fault if they are forced to admit the event even occurred at all. Pathetic.

You said “One more point I would make, unlike you Malamute, I don't hate anyone and most certainly not dead people”.

Its true, I hate your country with a passion. I make no apologies for it. Your nation has always been based in lies, hypocrisy, genocide and theft. What exactly is there to love about that ?

You also said “Unlike other people, we do not shirk trying to face our mistakes, crimes, or other misdeeds. Granted, we may not always be successful at finding a resolution, but we are not cowards.”

Actually you run away from your responsibilities all the time. During the Vietnam war in an illegal act of aggression the US bombed villages in Cambodia and Laos in an attempt to kill Vietnamese (this by the way is a war crime). Part of the munitions they used were mines. These mines still exist and are still killing people. The US refuses to do anything about it, least of all admit its guilt or more importantly pay for the clean up. It is left to other nations to do that. This is but one example there are hundreds just like it.

The depleted uranium left in Iraq from your tank shells. If you cant even get the electricity working I doubt highly that your nation has any plans to clean up that particular mess. BTW using DU weapons is a war crime. Hell, the civilized nations of the world cant even get you to follow the Geneva conventions over things like arbitrary detentions and torture, why would I think that you’d bother following basic human morality and not use WMD that will pollute Iraq for eons to come ?

Your words are fake and hollow. You claim to be this and that. Oh so open minded. But you still spout off the same talking points your twice unelected baboon rants on about. You're a fascist. You're not open minded. You have an agenda and you stick to it like glue. You talk of propaganda and you're right to because that is exactly why you're here. To try to convince people that your version of reality is actually based in reality instead of lies and delusions. Genocide has always been an american tradition. Wars of aggression fill your history. You living in denial will not change that. It won’t change the fact that people are tired of listening to your endless crap. I won’t change the hatred that instills in people around the world. I won’t bring back the innocent dead. You can lie and spread propaganda all you like on these blogs it won’t matter. You lost this war 100 years ago. You lost it because the people who come in contact with your nation know first hand what you're about. You can lie to your own people, you can brainwash them through their worthless education system. But you cant change reality of your past actions or the fact that people the world over know what you are truly like. America is a dead horse that hasn’t fallen over yet. But its teetering on the brink. Do you really think the world will care when karma comes and bitch slaps the living shit out of your nation ? You have many many crimes to answer for. You made a lot of enemies where you needn’t have made any enemies at all. You made those enemies through your own arrogance and self delusions of grandeur. And that is what is going to kill your nation. No amount of your propaganda and delusions will save you then.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

CofaM,

Yes, I am aware of the drawbacks of Wikipedia, which is why I said I don't usually use it as a source. But in a pinch it can lead you on to other things.

No one bothered to count how many there were,

Oh please. I realize that none of us were alive during the relevant time period. But I am sure you are aware of what this geographical area was like. You are also aware of transportation issues, basic survival issues and lack of people to actually do this kind of tabulation. In short, I think people had other things on their minds back then.

With the arrival of Europeans in the Western Hemisphere, Native American populations were exposed to new infectious diseases, diseases for which they lacked immunity.

Exactly what my article pointed out.

...probably one of the earliest episodes of biological warfare”.

Possibly true, possibly not. But there is no proof of intent by any government to make this official policy. Also, this event allegadly occurred in 1763 and was considered by a British officer. Quite some years before the United States was a twinkle in her father's eye.

Some regions lost over 90% of their original native population.

Also in my article.

“… The broad exchange that followed is known as the Columbian Exchange and resulted in a two-way transfer of a number of plant and animal species - as well as virulent pathogens.

You do understand the definition of two-way, I presume? Not only were there diseases carried into North America there were those carried out.

20th century scholarly estimates ranged from a low of 8.4 million to a high of 112.5 million persons.

Also in my article and a far cry from 170 million as you first stated.

The total hemispheric drop in native population was from roughly 90 million at first contact to a low of about 9 million.

Also contradictory figures to your 170 million alone in what became the United States.

There can be no doubt that what your government did to the natives of your country was genocide.

No, there can be no doubt that you cannot read(see article I linked to) or that you are incapable of looking at a situation that involves the United States objectively. Putting the veracity of your arguments in question. Pretty much all of your points were raised in my article.

Its true, I hate your country with a passion.

Again putting the veracity of any of your statements in question. Shows bias.

You talk of propaganda and you're right to because that is exactly why you're here.

Wrong. I am here to try to get people to think. To look at all sides of any issue and try to make fair judgements on their own, instead of listening to people like you who automatically spout any crap they want to about the United States or the West in general.

Did we(the US) fight dirty in Vietnam? Damn straight, we did. And yes, it was wrong. Are the Iraqis fighting dirty in Iraq? You bet. And yes, it's wrong too.

As far as the future of the United States is concerned, only time will tell. However, if I had my choice of which country in the world to ride out the future in(and I pretty much do), it would be the United States.

As far as your opinion is concerned, "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn."

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Quick response as I'm setting up a new biz this week and don’t have much time.

If you read through the articles I quoted from the numbers vary depending on who you're quoting.

The Iraqi’s are fighting you with the only methods they have. That you choose to say THEY are fighting a dirty war is VERY telling of your real agenda here. You forgot to mention the filthy undeclared war the US propagated on Iraq for 10 years. You know the food for oil scam where 500,000 Iraqi children died. Where Iraqi infrastructure was reduced to nearly nothing. Where the Iraqi’s couldn’t get parts or arms to keep their armies up and your nation OUT. According to the bitch Madelyn Albright those 500,000 dead Iraqi children were worth it. After all it makes stealing Iraqi resources so much easier after a bit of genocide. So much for standing up to your mistakes. More lies from a nation of liars. And baby killers.

So I think your nation is a toilet. Yes I do. That doesn’t mean my criticisms of your nation are invalid.

So I think you're a nation of fascists. Yes I do. That doesn’t mean my criticisms of your nation are invalid.

By all means stay in the US. No one wants you in their countries. You are not welcome anywhere else. Go down in the sinking ship that is america. With your dollar set to lose up to 70% of its value with your economy taking a nose dive it wont be long till you are forced to stop your war mongering ways due to lack of money. That is a very good thing.

I don’t care what your opinion of me is. I'm not here to kiss the asses of americans. Don’t like it too bad for you.

The two way transmission didn’t include a 90% drop in the population of Europe. It also didn’t include Native First Nations taking over say France or England.

Anyway, I have a biz meeting to attend. More later.

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

I agree the sanctions had to end.

The economic siege of the country has contributed directly to the general pauperization of the vast majority of people. The comprehensiveness and protracted nature of these sanctions, now in their tenth year, have had long-term consequences by, in particular, impeding the repair of the country's infrastructure--communication, transportation, education, government services. These generalized humanitarian consequences have radically complicated and limited the possibilities for meeting basic civilian needs under a program restricted to the delivery of commodities. The Secretary-General expressed this in his two-year review when he noted that "there is little experience with the type of problems encountered when the whole spectrum of basic services starts to fail, as is happening in Iraq" (para. 55).

Human Rights Dimensions of the Iraq Embargo

The policies of the government of Iraq have greatly compounded and magnified the humanitarian crisis. These include Iraq's failure to comply fully with Resolution 687; its refusal between 1991 and 1996 to implement any "oil-for-food" arrangement and its mixed record of cooperation since then; and its use of scarce available resources for non-humanitarian purposes--including military purposes as well as palaces and monuments--thereby redirecting the consequences of sanctions away from itself and onto vulnerable civilians. The recent reports of the Secretary-General on the operation of the humanitarian program have criticized the government's excessive warehousing of medicines and failure to order foods specially designed for the nourishment of infants, small children, and nursing mothers, and also noted Iraq's failure to cooperate with the program by routinely not providing government escorts for observer teams, thus preventing them from carrying out their duties. Broadly speaking, it is clear that the Iraqi government is not fulfilling its obligations under the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights to use "the maximum of its available resources," including "international assistance and cooperation," to provide an adequate standard of living and improve living standards.
Human Rights Watch

Embargo on Iraq - Human Rights Watch

They did no good, except to make Saddam richer and to hurt ordinary people in Iraq. They were a mistake. I have always thought Saddam should have been removed in 1991.

That you choose to say THEY are fighting a dirty war is VERY telling of your real agenda here.

Well, yes, I do think that targeting your own people is a little dirty. Sorry, if you think me odd.

No one wants you in their countries.

Actually, I have it on good authority that New Zealand is recruiting Americans.

I'm not here to kiss the asses of americans.

Thank heavens for small miracles. I am not inclined to have you kiss my ass, thank you very much.

The two way transmission didn’t include a 90% drop in the population of Europe.

True. The Americas were virgin territory for the pathogins of Europe. That doesn't mean it was a deliberate rape, though. Despite the thoughts of a few crackpots. You let your hate color your thinking.

More later.

Oh, God, really? Hasn't all that hate fried your brain, yet?

Kitten said...

erm caesar...i think world war 3 is starting right under ur nose..lol...get me out of here quick!!!

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Kitten,

What can I say, he pissed me off. :) I am feeling a little guilty at monopolizing Caesar's comments section for our...er...debate, though.

Caesar,

My apologies. I'm sure you'd probably rather go back to talking sex. :)

Confessions of a Malamute said...

Its always someone else’s fault isn't it Lynne. Its never you poor put upon americans. After all if Iraq had just rolled over spread its butt cheeks your nation would have had no problems raping their resources. How dare the Iraqi’s defend themselves! How terrible. You should release some of your WMD on them like bombing, use of white phosphorus in civilian area’s, depleted uranium shells left to get into the environment and poison their lands literally forever… Then you can lock up thousands of them without cause or charge and torture them and take pictures of them. Murder them in prisons where no one see and then lie about it later. Perhaps denying them basic medical care, deliberately permitting death squads to operate unchallenged. Don’t forget to make it as hard as possible for their children to go to schools where they are safe… oh wait, you have already done all those things.

And now you whine because the Iraqi’s are defending themselves. How dare they! How dare they not offer you their wives and daughter for your soldiers to rape. How dare they not offer you their sons and brothers to work for slave labour rates so that you can sit back and count the profits. Evil Iraqi’s indeed.

The UN is nothing more than a rubber stamp for american aggression. That report was written with american sensibilities in mind. Don’t wanna upset the yanks or they might threaten to bring “freedom and democracy” to your country. At the end of the day you have no moral ground to stand on with regards to the 500,000 dead Iraqi children. The parents and relatives of those children know who is responsible for their deaths. I would imagine that not a one of them forgets, and more than a few wont forgive you either. But rather than take any form of responsibility for that you try to blame the Iraqi’s for it. Its not flying. Save it for your fascist co workers at the base. After all your commanding officer wouldn’t like it if you engage in real debate. That’s not the program. The program is you and people like you cover EVERY Iraqi blog you can find and obfuscate anything and everything that doesn’t fit into your agenda.

Personal attacks mean nothing to me. Its because your opinion is worthless to me. You're a plant. You're here to push an agenda. When you cant push it with smiles you turn as nasty as you can in the hopes it will force dissenters out. Its not working. Oh, and you forgot to call me an anti-semite though I'm sure that’s on your list of approved name calling your CO gave you in a memo.

Don’t mistake a governments tolerance of you for the peoples dislike of you. I’ve been around the block and I know what the common people really think of you. It isn't pretty. So the Kiwi’s want your nurses. Big deal. It’s the skills they want not the people.

You play a game to appear open minded, but you never change your mind on anything. Its always someone else’s fault, you never did it, wasn’t you wasn’t you wasn’t you. Even when faced with the facts you refuse to acknowledge them. You side step questions that you cant defend and look for anything you can to push your agenda. I’ve seen your kind all over the Iraqi blogs and you're always the same. Carbon copies of each other. In fact I wrote a guide to being a fascist blogger I’ll post it here.

How to be an Anonymous neocon blog commentator.

Step 1. Don’t leave your name (unless the blog doesn’t allow anonymous comments). That way you can pretend to be 12 different “experts” all at the same time. Dot have a blog of your own either. This is a one way street only, you don’t want people tracing your IP to a military base. That would give the game away.
Step 2. Don’t go to Iraq/Afghanistan and do the job yourself. You're FAR too important writing propaganda here. After all the actual war zone IS dangerous and, well, you might get killed. And wouldn’t that be a tragedy.
Step 3. Even when proven wrong countless times write the same drivel over and over and over again. Repeat. Repeat again. Keep repeating it till you believe it yourself
Step 4 Call yourself ex military. That way you can pretend you actually know your ass from a hole in the ground AND you have the added benefit of not being called a coward when you refuse to go to Iraq/Afghanistan and put your money where your big fat mouth is
Step 5. Stick to the talking points your CIA handlers gave you like glue. Don’t debate under any circumstances. Repeat step 3 some more. Repeat step 3 again.
Step 6. Change your Iraq-Will-NOW-Begin-To-Calm-Down/ the surge is working talking points to match with every statement made by your twice unelected village idiot. For Gods sake don’t acknowledge your last Iraq-Will-NOW-Begin-To-Calm-Down/ the surge is working talking points which didn’t come true the last 27 times you wrote about them. This is defeatist after all.
Step 7. Write as many nasty comments as you can till blog owner gets tired of your drivel and threatens to ban you. Bray like a mule when you actually have to behave like a human being and claim that it isn't “democratic” for you not to be allowed to spew your hate based agenda.
Step 8. Pretend to be open minded. Pretend that you want to understand. But don’t actually change your views when faced with the facts. Your commanding officer will transfer you to Iraq or Afghanistan and then you’ll really be in the shit. After all why should you leave your air conditioned office and fight when you can sit in comfort and write lies ?
Step 9. Blame everyone else for your failures. Don’t admit guilt or responsibility in anything for any reason ever.
Step 10 Repeat steps 1 to 9. Endlessly.

Caesar of Pentra said...

Kitten! I don't know wht they are talking about. Anyway, grab my hand to get outta there. Don't be afraid.. Trust me! I won't let you fall. :))

Malamute... Lynne! Hold on fire! Let us evacuate the place and rescue the civilians! :P

Jhondie said...

lol. I thought we were talking about Sex?

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Caesar,

I don't know wht they are talking about.

Actually, I'm not quite sure what he's ranting about today either. *sigh*

Anyway, grab my hand to get outta there. Don't be afraid.. Trust me!

ROFL! There, see, we helped you make a date. ;)

CofaM,

You're a plant.

Do I have pretty flowers or am I just green and leafy?

Sorry, I'm just me. Not twelve different people.

And no, I'm not ex-military.

Doesn't matter where you are, the IP can be traced.

Yes, I am in an air-conditioned office(too air-conditioned if you ask me, my boss likes it cold *shiver*).

Sorry, can't say if the "surge" is working or not. Personally I think Iraq can go either way. And no, I have not a clue as to which way that will be.

Well, yes, I can write nasty comments when I'm angry. But I do try not to do it too often. Boredom can set in, in those who may read them. *yawn*

Nope, I have no problem blaming someone if they fail. But I do have a problem with those who can't face their own mistakes.

And I see you've missed my point entirely. I am rather persnickety about numbers and facts. They should always have substantiation before being bought lock, stock and barrel.

Oh, and maybe I'm a little concerned about my identity when I meet people like you. Call me strange, but you're not someone I care to know.

Yes, I know, I've missed some things in your diatribe but I actually do have to get to work now.

Kitten said...

Trust u Caesar??? lol!!! Thats like a little bird walking into a lions den...:p

but hey, im gona take a chance just this once...i think taking ur hand would be slightly safer than remaining here..lol :D

"kitten places her hand in Caesar's hand...Gulp!..."

aNarki-13 said...

"Don't be afraid.. Trust me! I won't let you fall. "

hmmm.. that is straight out of.. i wont tell you ;) however, i'll give another reference to the same source:

"
Oh I come from a land, from a faraway place
Where the caravan camels roam
Where it's flat and immense
And the heat is intense
It's barbaric, but hey, it's home

{
Original first verse (1992-93):

Oh I come from a land, from a faraway place
Where the caravan camels roam
Where they cut off your ear
If they don't like your face
It's barbaric, but hey, it's home
}
"

;)

T said...

Im not a muslim, but I have something to say to you all anyway.
As for you Caesar, what were you doing having sex with a relative?
Kitten, time changes everything including the view on sexual realtionships. Im not saying you should discard all the rules of islam, but someone could be a good muslim and still have sex without being married. A few important things to think about before having any sexual relationship, one, don't hurt people, two protect yourself, three having sex just because it is a desire of that moment is the not the way it should be. sex should be shared between two people who love each other.
Dear Kitten, don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think you get to decide who is muslim and who is not! It is really not up to you nor anyone else. Religion is a private matter and if someone calls himself muslim then you just have to take it that he is!

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Nope, nothing of any importance to say right now.

I just wanted to be #100! :D

M . H . Z said...

wow, this is overwhelming, a 100 comments!, and mine is more than that! 101, that's not the thing, I think such a subject is worthy for thousands of more comments, but still, my personal advice, you don't have to take it, first, Caesar, you ought to create a new post so you have fresh comments and we don't have to scroll that long!!, then, I'm telling you, having pre-marital sex is not to be judged right or wrong here because in a hundred comments no one seemed to change his mind about anything, it's just a matter of voting and still no one wins after all, It's actually nice watching some people getting really angry while some are laughing, I'm gonna tell you two things and of course you don't have to do them!, first, be sure that you are not going to prove anything to anyone, two, please keep writing posts on this subject as it burns the moods!! lol, greetings

Caesar of Pentra said...

Thanx alot, pals! I couldn't go on and keep on blogging without your help. Your comments were a great movtive for me to post more and more. I hope I'm doing well there.

T,
I really dunno what I was doing at that moment.

Lynne,
I guess I should reward you for being # 100. :))

MHZ,
I want to post something new, but I am so deadly busy. I'm expecting a guest... My Mel is coming this week. :)

Mafdet said...

Yes, "your" Mel is coming this week, but she's MY little Sister, so you'd better be nice to her - or I will be forced to seriously frown at you... ;)

Lynnette In Minnesota said...

Hmmm...well, if Mel is coming than we probably won't be seeing you for a while. I remember what happened when she visited Anarki... :P

Yes, you want to watch her closely, btw. She's been known to crawl down holes. :)

Caesar of Pentra said...

Hehehe, Madfet!
You don't have to worry! Your sister is in safe hands. Thanks for dropping in. Keep visiting me!

Lynne,
That's right. I'll be out of sights for a while. I need 2 do my best. I feel excited....

Mafdet said...

I've done my duty, I drove our Mel to the airport (http://mafdetstagebuch.blogspot.com/2007/05/my-siss-flown-to-syria.html),
now it's your turn to see she'll have a nice holiday.

Don't be too nervous, my Sis doesn't bite...

By the way, my name's not MaDFet, but MaFDet. O.K., I'm mad (as in insane), yout got that right, but what's a "fet"? ;o)

Mafdet said...

...and before you ask "What's a 'yout'?" - YOU is what I meant to say.
mumble mumble... should have used the preview-option mumble mumble...

Caesar of Pentra said...

See, MaFDet! She is now talking to you online! And you can see that she is safe and sound!

Mafdet said...

Naah, I can't SEE that she's safe and sound, I can only HEAR it, mwahahahahaaaaa!

T said...

Confessions of a Malamute
I don't care what religion you have or lack, but you certainly should be more respectfull and less hating...

b. said...

Here, and there, and gone again....

Look what you've missed, way out there in the desert.

(Yes, I know it's hot. But. what's a spanker to do??

Cheers & farewell again.

~~b. turns round; gives Mel another good spank* for the hell of it.
(I can see her blushing..knowing she likes it.)

Here, Kitty, Kitty...come on over//Wait! I'll go see you!

Gotta say goodbye to everyone!

SPANK*

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Biby Cletus said...

Hi i just surfed in searching for interesting facts on Essenes in the blogs.
you have a cool blog. Do keep up the good work. I'll be back for more. i live
far from where you live. its nice to be able to see what people from across
the world thinks.

On a related note perhaps you might find the following article interesting.
we are currently doing a series of posts on essenes and their culture and i'll
like to hear your take on the subject via comments. See ya there....

Historical
Facts on Essene Culture


Warm Regards from the Other Side of the Moon.
Bijoy Cletus - Kerala, India

Im going to be a soldier is that wrong said...

AS A AMERICan male its a lil strange to see a person who is so restricted by their faith in the US most people are very free with the idea of not wanting to get married to have sex but i can also respect any one who has a believe in some thing and sticks to it like that